<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>Just back from Guatemala, where private security guards are ubiquitous: hotels, apartments, banks and stores all have prominent gun-toting guards, some uniformed,others not. None in the schools, though. The weapon of choice is a pistol-gripped 12gauge pump. Our guide remarked that it was the Guatemalan equivalent of Social Security. When you got too old to work, some business hired you and gave you a chair, a gun, and half the minimum wage.<br /><br />BTW, we met many Mayans, including a Shaman who did a blessing ceremony for the new Baktun. The calendar rolled over without inciden, so it must have worked!</div></td></tr></table> <div id="_origMsg_">
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span>
</b>
Scott Dredge <scooterd408@hotmail.com>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">To:</span>
</b>
Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com>; <br>
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<span style="font-weight:bold:">Cc:</span>
</b>
viz <vision2020@moscow.com>; <br>
<b>
<span style="font-weight:bold:">Subject:</span>
</b>
Re: [Vision2020] Huh? <br>
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<span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span>
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Sat, Dec 22, 2012 9:13:12 PM <br>
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<td valign="top" style="font:inherit;"><div><span style=""><Who is likely to gain, both financially and politically if 130,000 schools were suddenly required to procure armed security for their campuses?></span></div><div><span style=""><br></span></div><div><span style="">Good - we need more home grown jobs with decent pay & benefits. That's just a positive side effect.</span></div><div><span style=""><br></span></div><div><span style="">Who are the financial and political losers, what are their beefs, and where are they drawing their line in the sand?<br></span><br><span style="">-Scott</span></div><div style=""><br>On Dec 22, 2012, at 12:37 PM, "Tom Hansen" <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">thansen@moscow.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style=""><div><div style=""><span></span></div><div><div
style="">Here is an accumulation of NRA supporters. Hint: They are ALL gun clubs and gun manufacturers.</div><div style=""><br></div><div style=""><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.nrafoundation.org/about/corporate/clubs.asp">http://www.nrafoundation.org/about/corporate/clubs.asp</a></span></div><div style=""><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap;"><br></span></div><div style=""><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap;">Here is a list of NRA corporate sponsors (not a PTA in the bunch)</span></div><div style=""><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap;"><br></span></div><div style=""><span style="font-size:15px;line-height:19px;white-space:nowrap;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.friendsofnra.org/corporate-sponsors.aspx">http://www.friendsofnra.org/corporate-sponsors.aspx</a></span></div><div><br><div style="">Who is likely to gain, both financially and politically if 130,000 schools were suddenly required to procure armed security for their campuses?</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">Now, "As for unreasonable people . . . "</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">"Moscow Cares"</div><div style=""><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a></div><div style=""> </div><div style=""><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div> </div></div></div><div style=""><br>On Dec 22, 2012, at 11:54 AM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank"
href="javascript:return">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style=""><div>
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Joe,<br><br>You may ultimately be right that 'it is a bad plan', but obviously not everyone has come to that same conclusion. IMO it would be a good use of time to FULLY vet that proposal along with its advantages (if any) and disadvantages. And if you know things that others don't and it's all crystal clear to you, then by all means shoot holes in the idea and preferably with cold hard verifiable facts and statistics.<br><br><<span style="">it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal><br>Have the FBI profilers weigh in on this<br>Have mental health professionals weigh in on this<br><br><</span><span style="">The plan is economically unfeasible.><br>Show the economic numbers in comparison to the price of unleashed mayhem<br>Put forth all ideas of funding prevention programs and similarly fully vet each of those ideas<br><br>Ultimately the plan either stands up to detailed scrutiny or
can be demonstrably shown as unfeasible. unwise, etc. The NRA says this is the answer and they have legions of supporters that take that as the gospel truth since this 'group think' seems to be a human attribute as can be seen almost everywhere in politics, religion, v2020, and so on.<br><br>Reasonable people can clearly see the truth when it's presented clearly, crisply, and - above all - accurately. As for unreasonable people, there's no hope for them.<br><br>-Scott</span><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:11:19 -0800<br>From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">jampot@roadrunner.com</a><br>CC: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"
href="javascript:return">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh?<br><br>Gary,<br><br>I'm happy to discuss this issue with you but that would mean we would have to discuss it. People keep mentioning specific criticisms about the NRA plan, referring you and others to articles and television interviews where the plan is discussed and dismissed, yet I don't see any real discussion of the plan from its supporters. I have not seen many responses to the criticisms other than "It might work." Like that was a reason for seriously the plan.<br>
<br>Let me be more specific. Here are two recent criticisms that have not yet been responded to. They are recent, so maybe that is the reason: one by Dan and one by Sunil. Sunil writes:<br><br>With regard to the NRA response: As my memory serves me, I think we've had shootouts at the following locations in the last 12-18 months:<br>
-an elementary school;<br>-a shopping mall;<br>-a cinema;<br>-a Sikh temple;<br>-a political rally (that was >18 months ago, I think).<br>Should we have armed guards to protect us from each other at all of those locations?<br>
<br>This broadens the economic argument that I was giving. The plan is economically unfeasible. It isn't JUST that it is irresponsible -- a huge federal program in a time of economic crisis -- it is unfeasible.<br><br>
Second, Dan notes that there are questions about the need for the plan. He writes: "<span style="">there was significant security present when Gabrielle Giffords was shot." Why think the security will help? You are ready to launch a huge governmental program and it isn't even clear that it will do any good. Saundra noted that it might draw shooters since most of them are suicidal as well as homicidal.<br>
<br>So how do you or any others respond to these criticisms of the NRA plan? Let's discuss it. I want to get this over with because this is a bad plan and we are wasting a lot of time talking about it. Let's see why it is a bad plan and move on to a better plan.<br>
<br>Joe<br></span><br><div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Gary Crabtree <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<u></u>
<div style="padding-left:10px;padding-right:10px;padding-top:15px;" lang="EN-US">
<div><font face="Calibri">I thought the point here was to discuss options. Do you
imagine that being extra unpleasant lends an extra level of credence to your
point of view? </font></div>
<div><font face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
<div style="font:10pt Tahoma;">
<div><br></div>
<div style="background:#f5f5f5;">
<div><b>From:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm
CTRL + Click to follow link" ymailto="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">Saundra Lund</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 8:18 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" ymailto="mailto:moscowlocksmith@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">'Gary Crabtree'</a> ; <a rel="nofollow" title="vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">'viz'</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Huh?</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;">It
worked soo well at Columbine, didn’t it?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;">Confrontation
by the armed officer on campus & the exchange of fire drove one of the
shooters <b>back into the school</b> to continue the slaughter. There’s a
stellar success!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;">Oops
– but don’t confuse you with reality & facts, right?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;">Saundra<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-family:'Calibri', 'sans-serif';color:#1f497d;font-size:11pt;"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:'Tahoma', 'sans-serif';font-size:10pt;">From:</span></b><span style="font-family:'Tahoma', 'sans-serif';font-size:10pt;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[mailto:<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Gary
Crabtree<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, December 21, 2012 1:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joe
Campbell<br><b>Cc:</b> viz<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
Huh?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Training to become a cop in Idaho is 10 weeks making time not
much of an issue. There are quite a few things covered in POST that a school
guard would not need training in (pursuit driving, crime scene investigation,
etc. ) further reducing the time needed to get qualified people in place.
Utilizing vets who were MP's or members of security detachments along with
retired police officers would be prime candidates for positions such as
this.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">All entry doors in a facility could be easily modified to
emergency exit only except for one. This would make it so all visitors would be
funneled through one door and past one armed guard.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">I really don't see what make this idea so unworkable other
then the fact that it doesn't jibe very well with the anti-gun
agenda.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">g<u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="ecxMsoNormal">Scott,<br><br>There was an
Assistant Director of the FBI on CNN today explaining why this cannot be
implemented. Think of the training required before you release folks with guns
onto school campuses. Then think of the number of schools, the number of doors
to the school that would need to be guarded, the costs of training and hiring an
education militia, and the number of qualified people available for those
positions. This is a bad idea that does not stand a chance of getting passed.
Forget about it and move on to some actual solution.<br><br>Best,
Joe<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Scott Dredge <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:scooterd408@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">scooterd408@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="ecxMsoNormal">Armed security is something that
could be implemented, regulated, and enforced much more easily than gun control,
gun bans, etc. Armed security guards could be subjected to more rigorous
background and mental heath checks plus mandatory training and licensing without
having that pesky 2nd Amendment coming into the mix. Somewhat similar to
how we supposedly have air marshalls on some flights. This might be one of
the very few things that the Republicans would actually be OK to put on the
fragile shoulders of tax paying individuals and businesses.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center;" class="ecxMsoNormal" align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2012 09:36:59
-0800<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="javascript:return">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: [Vision2020]
Huh?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt;" class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">"Before Congress reconvenes, before we engage in any lengthy
debate over legislation, regulation or anything else, as soon as our kids return
to school after the holiday break, we need to have every single school in
America immediately deploy a protection program proven to work — and by that I
mean armed security."<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">- Wayne LaPierre, Executive Vice President of the
National Rifle Association (December 21, 2012)<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.5pt;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp">http://tinyurl.com/cphq5lp</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">------------------------------------<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">"Moscow Cares"<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.MoscowCares.com">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Tom Hansen<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal">Moscow, Idaho<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div>
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