<div dir="ltr"><div><div>There is no doubt that the incidents of which we are discussing have multiple causes. The way to reduce such incidents is to work on each cause -- the possession of super lethal weapons being one of the causes.<br>
<br></div>It is a fallacy to argue that since there are multiple causes, we should throw our hands up ignore all of them. There are many causes of cancer, for example. We have reduced the incidence of many types by attacking specific kinds and their causes.<br>
<br></div>w.<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif">There are underlying problems that cause these shootings that are being shunted aside in favor of gun control legislation. Why, exactly, did this guy do what he did? If we knew that, we might be able to answer the question of whether or not he would have done it in the absence of freely-available guns, as well as to start looking for solutions that would stop these kinds of events before they start. I doubt it was simply the availability of guns. I doubt his motivation was that he was bored, here was a nifty AR15, "might as well make use of it".<br>
<br>For example, the Columbine shootings appear to have been motivated, at least in part, by bullying from other students. Yet the focus on the national stage was never "stop bullying!", it was "ban guns!". I'm doubtful that if they didn't have
access to guns that they wouldn't have done something.<br><br>Guns are real, physical objects for which we already have laws covering their use. Many of these laws could be tightened to some degree, which makes them an easy scapegoat. Focusing solely on them, however, will do little to solve the actual problems at hand. The real problem is that the best solutions are *hard*. For example, you mention controlling access to "folks that shouldn't have them". How, exactly, do you determine who should and who shouldn't have access to them, given that the right to have access to them is spelled out in the Constitution? <br>
<br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt"> <div dir="ltr">
<font face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> vision 2020 <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 20, 2012 6:55 AM<div>
<div class="h5"><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br> </div></div></font> </div><div><div class="h5"> <br>
<div>
<div><div dir="ltr">
Paul, <br><br>Just like Roger you are building your argument on a defective premise or on assumptions. You don't know how much planning 'they' put in. You say, 'If the
people that commit these atrocities didn't have guns readily
available, they would have stolen them or bought them on the black
market.'<br><br>How do you know? How do you know it would happen every time? Let's pretend one could not legally buy an AR15 variant (or any other high capacity semi-automatic). Would this kid's mother have gone out and bought one illegally? You don't know that. And in this world I just made, these guns are going to be a whole lot more expensive on the black market. How many of 'them' are going to be priced out of that market?<br>
<br>How do you know they're going to make car bombs? It's a lot easier to pick up the gun in the other room, or to take it our of the safe, than it is to build a car bomb.<br><br>Why should we accept your assumption, 'If these guys had really wanted to make their statements
or whatever they thought they were doing, they could have made
pipe bombs or a few molotov cocktails from common household
chemicals. They could have ran their victims over with a
vehicle. They could have terrorised them with a chainsaw, or set
the school on fire.'<br><br>Well, maybe some of those things might happen, but I think it's more unlikely than not. <br><br>I'm not advocating banning gun ownership, but I think we need to be thinking intelligently about how to control access to them by the folks who shouldn't have them. I don't think we can absolutely prevent all such access, but we can certainly improve on what we're doing now. And I think part of thinking about it intelligently is by not accepting bad premises for arguments.<br>
<br>Sunil <br><br><div><div></div><hr>Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:04:42 -0800<br>From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br><br>
<div><br>
These shootings don't just happen spur of the moment. They are
planned and prepared for for a long time beforehand. If the
people that commit these atrocities didn't have guns readily
available, they would have stolen them or bought them on the black
market. If these guys had really wanted to make their statements
or whatever they thought they were doing, they could have made
pipe bombs or a few molotov cocktails from common household
chemicals. They could have ran their victims over with a
vehicle. They could have terrorised them with a chainsaw, or set
the school on fire.<br>
<br>
The sad fact is that the price we would have to pay to truly
protect ourselves from these kinds of incidents is just too damned
big. We would have to give up too many of our liberties for too
little gain. Meanwhile, orders of magnitudes more people will die
from cancer, heart attacks, traffic accidents, and other common
causes.<br>
<br>
The same thing goes for protecting ourselves from terrorists.
It's too costly, both in money and in civil liberties, and all
we've done is made it worse.<br>
<br>
I don't know what the answer is. I just have an ugly feeling that
whatever gestates from this current climate of fear and outrage
will be worse than the current situation. The Law of Unintended
Consequences is real and should be given due respect. We
shouldn't just jump at the nearest boogie man, whether it's
assault weapons or large magazines, without giving it the careful
thought it requires. I doubt we are in a position to have that
conversation on a national stage right now.<br>
<br>
In both cases (school shootings and terrorist attacks) the root
causes are complex and are for the most part being ignored.
Another sad fact is that in this world of sound bites and instant
Internet memes no politician is going to look at the real causes.
They will look for the low-hanging fruit, and pretend it's more
than just putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 12/18/2012 09:20 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>Matt,<br>
<br>
This sounds sensible. Again, I don't have a "plan" about what to
do. More interested in exploring solutions -- and this does just
that. I like the idea of stronger background checks.<br>
<br>
Note too that if you think of the latest episodes of gun violence
-- the ones we've all heard about at least -- gun theft did not
play a role. Most of the shooters were young, as well. In general,
the school shooters were young and required their guns from family
members, or purchased them themselves. These are not folks who are
stealing guns. <br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
<div>On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Matt
Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Joe,<br>
<br>
I believe some want to ban these guns but allow current
owners to be grandfathered in. This could allow these guns
to be on the streets for years to come. I agree with
stronger regulation into the future owners of guns. Maybe
a longer waiting period along with stronger background
checks. Classes or prior military would help as well.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>
From: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:06:10 -0800<br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
CC: <a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br>
<br>
<div>This makes no sense. Just to use an example, if you
banned assault rifles, no one could steal them. I'm
not saying that's what we should do. But we should
look at ALL possible solutions. Again, research
Australia and gun control. Best, Joe<br>
<br>
On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times roman,new york,times,serif">
<div><span>They steal the guns. So I don't think
the laws would change the situation, unless
you ban their production. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times roman,new york,times,serif">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times roman,new york,times,serif">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="border-right:#ccc solid;padding-right:0px;border-top:solid;padding-left:0px;font-size:0px;padding-bottom:0px;border-left:solid;line-height:0;padding-top:0px;border-bottom:1px solid;min-height:0px">
</div>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>;
Moscow Vision 2020 <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>Some form of gun control has got to
be part of the solution. And I believe
all the guns used in recent shootings
were legally purchased. That's why some
form of gun control has got to be part
of the solution. Australia did it, so
can we<br>
<br>
On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Donovan
Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div><span>Gun laws are not the
answer to this problem. Not
allowing for the public release
of the gunman's name would go
further then gun laws, as they
usually do it for fame.
Education of staff, students,
and community members, and
better protection of schools
would also help. This kid did
not get the guns legally, and no
reasonable restrictive gun law
would have prevented it. There
are a host of other things that
would have helped though. </span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:new roman,new york,times,serif"><span></span><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:new roman,new york,times,serif"><span>Donovan
J. Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:new roman,new york,times,serif">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="border-right:solid;padding-right:0px;border-top:solid;padding-left:0px;font-size:0px;padding-bottom:0px;border-left:solid;line-height:0;padding-top:0px;border-bottom:1px solid;min-height:0px">
</div>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
Moscow Vision 2020 <<a rel="nofollow" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 18, 2012
6:54 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
[Vision2020] The Petition<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<image.<span>jpeg</span>><br>
<br>
<br>
<span><span>Seeya</span></span>
round town, Moscow, because . .
.<br>
<br>
"Moscow Cares"<br>
<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/" target="_blank">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
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