<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">People slit their wrists, jump from bridges, and overdose on pills all the time. This is another example of a problem that has more complicated roots that more gun control will barely affect, if at all.<br><br>I suspect that there are currently no bombings of schools (at least since 1927 - google Bath School disaster) because guns are prevalent. Yes, I know this hurts my supposed pro-NRA position. Yet, if we lock the guns away, they will make those bombs or find another method. When we lock away all the fertilizer, kerosene, saltpeter, certain cleaners, and whatnot, they will find yet another way. We'd have to give up the Internet and free access to information along the way, if we want to be "truly safe". The oppressive government we'd end up with would be a thousand times worse than the
random school shootings. In my opinion, of course. And the elusive goal of safety would still never be reached and the actual problems that cause this - whatever they are - will still not be addressed.<br><br>Paul<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Matt Decker <mattd2107@hotmail.com>; "vision2020@moscow.com" <vision2020@moscow.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, December 19, 2012 12:57 AM<br> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br> </font> </div> <br>
<meta http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control" content="off"><div id="yiv726025799"><div><div>You make it seem like gun violence is a reality that we just have to accept. Yet it is particular to the US -- at least in terms of the rate and severity. And if you're right that folks who want to kill will use any method -- pipe bombs -- than why aren't there more pipe bombings of schools? Why are there in fact none?</div><div><br></div><div>Again, think of the biggest risk factor of owning a gun: suicide. Try the same argument on it. "Well, there's no use harping about the dangers of suicide from gun ownership. If someone really wants to kill himself, he could make a pipe bomb." That sounds like a very bad argument. No one is going to kill himself with a pipe bomb. What makes guns a threat when it comes to suicide is convenience. No assembly required. Perfect for someone who is unstable, depressed, and prone to rash judgments. THAT is why they are
dangerous.</div><div><br></div><div>And guess what? Your guns are a safety risk to me because someone could steal them and use them against me. Something like this in fact just happened. So it's not an issue about personal rights vs. personal risks. Do you know how many stolen guns are in circulation? It is an issue of personal rights vs. public risks. </div><div><br></div><div>There are genuine debates here that as a contemporary society we need to have. I don't think these NRA arguments are helpful. If you can restrict speech -- which you can -- you can certainly control guns.<br><br>On Dec 18, 2012, at 11:04 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div class="yiv726025799moz-cite-prefix"><br>
These shootings don't just happen spur of the moment. They are
planned and prepared for for a long time beforehand. If the
people that commit these atrocities didn't have guns readily
available, they would have stolen them or bought them on the black
market. If these guys had really wanted to make their statements
or whatever they thought they were doing, they could have made
pipe bombs or a few molotov cocktails from common household
chemicals. They could have ran their victims over with a
vehicle. They could have terrorised them with a chainsaw, or set
the school on fire.<br>
<br>
The sad fact is that the price we would have to pay to truly
protect ourselves from these kinds of incidents is just too damned
big. We would have to give up too many of our liberties for too
little gain. Meanwhile, orders of magnitudes more people will die
from cancer, heart attacks, traffic accidents, and other common
causes.<br>
<br>
The same thing goes for protecting ourselves from terrorists.
It's too costly, both in money and in civil liberties, and all
we've done is made it worse.<br>
<br>
I don't know what the answer is. I just have an ugly feeling that
whatever gestates from this current climate of fear and outrage
will be worse than the current situation. The Law of Unintended
Consequences is real and should be given due respect. We
shouldn't just jump at the nearest boogie man, whether it's
assault weapons or large magazines, without giving it the careful
thought it requires. I doubt we are in a position to have that
conversation on a national stage right now.<br>
<br>
In both cases (school shootings and terrorist attacks) the root
causes are complex and are for the most part being ignored.
Another sad fact is that in this world of sound bites and instant
Internet memes no politician is going to look at the real causes.
They will look for the low-hanging fruit, and pretend it's more
than just putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 12/18/2012 09:20 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Matt,<br>
<br>
This sounds sensible. Again, I don't have a "plan" about what to
do. More interested in exploring solutions -- and this does just
that. I like the idea of stronger background checks.<br>
<br>
Note too that if you think of the latest episodes of gun violence
-- the ones we've all heard about at least -- gun theft did not
play a role. Most of the shooters were young, as well. In general,
the school shooters were young and required their guns from family
members, or purchased them themselves. These are not folks who are
stealing guns. <br>
<br>
Joe<br>
<br>
<div class="yiv726025799gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:06 PM, Matt
Decker <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:mattd2107@hotmail.com">mattd2107@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv726025799gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
Joe,<br>
<br>
I believe some want to ban these guns but allow current
owners to be grandfathered in. This could allow these guns
to be on the streets for years to come. I agree with
stronger regulation into the future owners of guns. Maybe
a longer waiting period along with stronger background
checks. Classes or prior military would help as well.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>
From: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 20:06:10 -0800<br>
To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
CC: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br>
<br>
<div>This makes no sense. Just to use an example, if you
banned assault rifles, no one could steal them. I'm
not saying that's what we should do. But we should
look at ALL possible solutions. Again, research
Australia and gun control. Best, Joe<br>
<br>
On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div><span>They steal the guns. So I don't think
the laws would change the situation, unless
you ban their production. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-LEFT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-TOP:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;min-height:0px;">
</div>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b>
Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Cc:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>>;
Moscow Vision 2020 <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] The Petition<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div>Some form of gun control has got to
be part of the solution. And I believe
all the guns used in recent shootings
were legally purchased. That's why some
form of gun control has got to be part
of the solution. Australia did it, so
can we<br>
<br>
On Dec 18, 2012, at 7:11 PM, Donovan
Arnold <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div><span>Gun laws are not the
answer to this problem. Not
allowing for the public release
of the gunman's name would go
further then gun laws, as they
usually do it for fame.
Education of staff, students,
and community members, and
better protection of schools
would also help. This kid did
not get the guns legally, and no
reasonable restrictive gun law
would have prevented it. There
are a host of other things that
would have helped though. </span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><span></span><span></span> </div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:16px;background-color:transparent;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;"><span>Donovan
J. Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div style="FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:times new roman, new york, times, serif;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;BORDER-TOP:#ccc 1px solid;PADDING-LEFT:0px;FONT-SIZE:0px;PADDING-BOTTOM:0px;BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;LINE-HEIGHT:0;PADDING-TOP:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM:#ccc 1px solid;min-height:0px;">
</div>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">From:</span></b>
Tom Hansen <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">To:</span></b>
Moscow Vision 2020 <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, December 18, 2012
6:54 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[Vision2020] The Petition<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<image.<span>jpeg</span>><br>
<br>
<br>
<span><span>Seeya</span></span>
round town, Moscow, because . .
.<br>
<br>
"Moscow Cares"<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.moscowcares.com/">http://www.MoscowCares.com</a><br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
<br>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote>
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