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I think conceal carry is like a double edged sword.  It'll help in some cases and it'll have tragic consequences in others.  I remember quite a number of years ago (20+ maybe) where a pregnant woman was shot in the head by a disabled veteran while she was in the process of robbing him on the streets of Oakland, CA.  It was a huge controversy on so many different levels including the one where an Oakland hospital spent hundreds of thousands of dollars - that they could have otherwise donated to vaccinate hundreds of children - in keeping the brain dead woman alive until her fetus was developed enough to where it could be removed by c-section and she could be unplugged and left to die on the operating table.  If I recall correctly, the disabled vet never faced any formal charges even though he did not have a legal carry permit.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:33:00 -0700<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What Tri-State is Promoting . . .<br><br>
  
    
  
  
    <div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix"><br>
      The claim, should somebody make it, that lots of these kinds of
      events are being stopped regularly by people carrying concealed
      weapons might be a myth.  Saying that a gun might be helpful in
      such a situation isn't a myth because we can't (yet) point to a
      case where it stopped the shooter because we simply don't have
      enough information.  You would have to know how many of these
      events have happened (classifying them somehow), in how many of
      them people had concealed weapons on their person, and whether or
      not having the weapon overall helped or hindered the situation. 
      There simply haven't been enough of these kinds of events to know
      that.  For all the media hype when one happens, they are actually
      rare events.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 08/11/2012 03:46 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:B1740A4E-E471-4943-B036-0B890410F2CC@gmail.com">
      <div>
        <div>Well whether someone used a gun and saved the day in a case
          like Aurora is either true or false. If true, when and where? </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>The case you have is different. Robbers who shot NO ONE and
          were subsequently shot by an old man. Not a case of preventing
          violence by any means.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I guess your next suggestion is to get rid of police -- too
          much big government -- and it's everyone for himself.</div>
        <div><br>
          On Aug 11, 2012, at 2:34 PM, "Gary Crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>>
          wrote:<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div><span></span></div>
        <blockquote>
          <div>
            
            
            <div><font face="Calibri">CWP holders will be reluctant to
                pipe up in as much as part of concealed is keeping your
                yap shut and avoiding telling all of Gods creation that
                you're healed. Your opinion is looked on with favor by
                some to be sure.</font></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div><font face="Calibri">A recent example of an armed
                citizen exercising his rights to good effect:</font></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div><font face="Calibri"><a title="http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html
CTRL
                  + Click to follow link" href="http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html" target="_blank">http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/71-Year-Old-Man-Shoots-Would-Be-Robbers-at-Ocala-Internet-Cafe-Authorities-162941656.html</a></font></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div><font face="Calibri">To say that a guy with a hand gun
                has never prevented a massacre is illogical in as much
                as who can say what might have happened had a different
                path been followed? In one scenario two goblins are
                wounded and taken to jail. In another, a dozen innocents
                minding their own business in a internet café are
                senselessly murdered...film at 11:00</font></div>
            <div> </div>
            <div><font face="Calibri">g</font></div>
            <div style="font:10pt Tahoma">
              <div><br>
              </div>
              <div style="background:#f5f5f5">
                <div style="font-color:black"><b>From:</b> <a title="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com
                    CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a>
                </div>
                <div><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:57 AM</div>
                <div><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
                    CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                </div>
                <div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See
                  What Tri-State is Promoting . . .</div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix"><br>
              Yes, you'd have to be damn sure about your line of fire. 
              Firing in the middle of a frenzied crowd running panicked
              for the exits would surely be asking for trouble. 
              However, it's my understanding that for a while during the
              shooting the shooter had complete control of the
              situation.  Anyone trying to leave was shot.  Many people
              were playing dead in the hopes they would  be passed
              over.  Firing on the shooter, even if he's in body armor,
              might distract him enough that some people might have made
              it to the exits.  Body armor doesn't make you invincible,
              depending on the armor and the caliber of the weapon used
              you might still have made an impact, since he'd still be
              hit by the blunt force of the bullet.  In this situation,
              though, you would probably also have been shot dead
              shortly after because he was so well prepared (vest,
              leggings, throat protector, groin protector, and a helmet
              with a visor).  Who knows?  Telling a loved one "when I
              start shooting, RUN for the exit and don't stop" might
              have worked.<br>
              <br>
              Most other shootings like this we've heard about haven't
              involved such a heavily armored assailant.  In fact, quite
              a few of them have taken place in areas where gun use is
              often restricted, such as in schools or on university
              campuses.  Harris and Kliebold wore T-shirts and cargo
              pants at Columbine.  A student who had happened to have
              smuggled a gun into the school might have been able to
              have had a real impact on that event.<br>
              <br>
              An interesting thing to think about, in my opinion. 
              Apparently, that opinion is not shared on this list.<br>
              <br>
              Paul<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              On 08/11/2012 08:13 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote cite="mid:CAB8VJX7U4E9YZfQGd9RgXFjkoFVraBiTcFHCs0hawhcEorvVHg@mail.gmail.com">
              <div style="text-align:left">It's hard to think of
                something more foolish than someone or ones with a hand
                gun in a disorganized, panicky crowd trying to shoot a
                person with a automatic weapon shielded by body armor. 
                How many more victims would be added to the final body
                count?<br>
                <br>
                Didn't something like this happen in the Moscow
                Massacre?<br>
                <br>
                w.<br>
                <br>
              </div>
              <div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:02 AM,
                Donovan Arnold <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>></span>
                wrote:<br>
                <blockquote style="border-left:#ccc 1px solid;padding-left:1ex" class="ecxgmail_quote">
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div><span>Tom,</span></div>
                      <div><span></span> </div>
                      <div><span>While your wife if shopping Tri-State,
                          you should be to. I mean come on, support your
                          community why don't you. :) </span></div>
                      <div><span></span> </div>
                      <div><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
                        <div style="font-family:times new roman,new\00000d\00000a                          york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
                          <div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial">
                              <div class="ecxim"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b>
                                Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>><br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b>
                                Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>>
                                <br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b>
                                "<<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>"
                                <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b>
                              Friday, August 10, 2012 6:47 PM
                              <div class="ecxim"><br>
                                <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b>
                                Re: [Vision2020] [more] Look See What
                                Tri-State is Promoting . . .<br>
                              </div>
                            </font></div>
                          <br>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div class="ecxim">
                                  <div>You may very well be right,
                                    Sunil.  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>It's just a habit I have acquired
                                    while in the service.  Trust those
                                    around you, but keep your powder
                                    dry.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>I saw the poster at Tri-State.
                                     And, as I've said before, this is
                                    the first time I have seen such an
                                    advertisement in Moscow.  I checked
                                    a few things out, such as its
                                    website, phone number, etc. etc.
                                    etc. (Hey, I needed something to
                                    pass the time while my wife was
                                    shopping at Tri-State).</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>The more I dug, the more red
                                    flags I found.  The more red flags I
                                    found, the more I dug.  I have so
                                    many info sources, concerning the
                                    NFT Academy, bookmarked for
                                    reference I am thinking of
                                    discarding half of 'em.</div>
                                  <div><br>
                                    <div>Seeya round town, Moscow.</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>Tom Hansen</div>
                                    <div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>"We're a town of about 23,000
                                      with 10,000 college students.  The
                                      college students are not very
                                      active in local elections (thank
                                      goodness!)."</div>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>- Dale Courtney (March 28,
                                      2007)</div>
                                    <div> </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <div><br>
                                    On Aug 10, 2012, at 6:19 PM, Sunil
                                    Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>>
                                    wrote:<br>
                                    <br>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote>
                                  <div>
                                    <div dir="ltr">
                                      <div class="ecxim">I've taken such a
                                        class and in the past had a
                                        concealed weapon permit; who
                                        knows, I may again. I don't
                                        think this class is a big deal.<br>
                                        <br>
                                        Sunil <br>
                                        <br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div class="h5">From: <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
                                          Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012
                                          17:41:58 -0700<br>
                                          To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                          Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
                                          [more] Look See What Tri-State
                                          is Promoting . . .<br>
                                          <br>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <div class="h5">
                                            <div>
                                              <div style="font-size:medium">The primary
                                                reason this caught my
                                                eye . . .</div>
                                              <div style="font-size:medium"><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div style="font-size:medium">I have lived
                                                here in Moscow for just
                                                over twenty years.  The
                                                is the FIRST time I have
                                                seen concealed-weapon
                                                classes openly
                                                advertised in town.
                                                 Couple that up with the
                                                increasing paranoia, as
                                                a result of the recent
                                                instances in Aurora
                                                (Colorado) and Milwaukee
                                                (Wisconsin), and I feel
                                                I have a right to be
                                                curious.</div>
                                              <div style="font-size:medium"><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div style="font-size:medium">BTW, the NFT
                                                Academy website has only
                                                been in existence since
                                                April 2012 and was not
                                                publicly released until
                                                June 12, 2012 (TWO
                                                MONTHS AGO).</div>
                                              <br>
                                              <a href="http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://fiddlerstudios.com/created-by-fs/announcing-the-national-firearms-training-academy-website/</a></div>
                                            <div> 
                                              <div>I have more info to
                                                share, concerning the
                                                NFT Academy and its
                                                website, but let's see
                                                where this thread leads.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Seeya round town,
                                                Moscow.</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>Tom Hansen</div>
                                              <div>Moscow, Idaho</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>"We're a town of
                                                about 23,000 with 10,000
                                                college students.  The
                                                college students are not
                                                very active in local
                                                elections (thank
                                                goodness!)."</div>
                                              <div><br>
                                              </div>
                                              <div>- Dale Courtney
                                                (March 28, 2007)</div>
                                              <div> </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <div><br>
                                              On Aug 10, 2012, at 3:09
                                              PM, Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" rel="nofollow">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>>
                                              wrote:<br>
                                              <br>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote>
                                          <div>
                                            <div dir="ltr">
                                              <div>
                                                <div class="h5">Something
                                                  legal? The nerve! Next
                                                  they'll be selling
                                                  guns!<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  Sunil <br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  From: <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>
                                                  Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012
                                                  14:24:56 -0700<br>
                                                  To: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                                                  Subject: [Vision2020]
                                                  Look See What
                                                  Tri-State is Promoting
                                                  . . .<br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  <pre> 
 
Seeya round town, Moscow.
 
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
 
"We're a town of about 23,000 with 10,000 college students.  The college students are not very active in local elections (thank goodness!)."

 
- Dale Courtney (March 28, 2007)
 
</pre>
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                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                                <blockquote>
                                  <div>
                                    <div class="ecxim"><span>=======================================================</span><br>
                                      <span>List services made available
                                        by First Step I</span></div>
                                  </div>
                                </blockquote>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          <div><span>=======================================================</span><br>
            <span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br>
            <span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br>
            <span>               <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></span><br>
            <span>          <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br>
            <span>=======================================================</span></div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <div><span></span></div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

<br>=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
=======================================================</div>                                       </div></body>
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