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Thanks for the response anyway Paul - I was really hoping you could just try your best to take the indefensible side of keeping same sex marriage bans in place. I've racked my brain trying to think of even a single solitary - even a stretch - of a reason to continue denying same sex couples and families with same sex parents equal rights / benefits / protections of married couples and I continue to just come up blank so I'm disappointed that no one could step forward and enlighten me.<br><br>In short, can anyone explain why same couples don't deserve to be as equally miserable as married couples? Also, for folks who are bent out of shape about homo sex, the best way to get people to completely stop having sex would be to encourage them to get married. Thus, same sex marriage is a win for everyone although I don't believe that churches should be forced to perform same sex weddings against their beliefs.<br><br>-Scott<br><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:22:20 -0700<br>From: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>To: scooterd408@hotmail.com<br>CC: kmmos1@frontier.com; vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Same sex marriage<br><br>
<div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix">On 07/15/2012 06:28 PM, Scott Dredge
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:SNT124-W63374769D98C68EE0545D1E4D40@phx.gbl">
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<div dir="ltr">Paul / Gary - can either of you give it a shot at
playing devil's advocate? And by that, I mean a good shot, not
just some half assed, weak, grasping at straws attempt.<br>
<br>
-Scott<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I really can't. If I had to attack gay marriage, I would do it by
attacking the very concept of marriage as a whole. It's a religious
institution that has no place in a presumed secular society. It's
formed straight out of tradition, and the world has moved on. Every
secular benefit given to married couples should be individually
scrutinized in order to determine if it could in fact be given out
to others as well as married couples. Why shouldn't your best
friend be able to make medical decisions on your behalf if you are
incapacitated, if it's been setup that way before-hand? Why
shouldn't any number of people be able to sign up to jointly care
for a child, receiving tax benefits in exchange? And so on.<br>
<br>
Gay marriages would be just as wrong as... non-gay marriages.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:SNT124-W63374769D98C68EE0545D1E4D40@phx.gbl">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<hr id="ecxstopSpelling">Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 10:46:06 -0700<br>
From: <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kmmos1@frontier.com">kmmos1@frontier.com</a><br>
To: <a class="ecxmoz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Same sex marriage<br>
<br>
<div class="ecxmoz-cite-prefix">On 7/15/2012 4:37 AM, Donovan
Arnold wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">Sorry,
Ken, but that is one of the silliest arguments I have
heard. Marriage has nothing to do with if people have
children or not.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Marriage has to do with, among other things, with whether
people have social permission to procreate. Same-sex marriage
implies such permission is not granted to individuals within
that relationship.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">You
can be married and have no children and be not married
and have 10 children.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Of course. Physical biology is not prevented by marriage or
its absence.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">Many same
sex couples can, do, will, and want to have children,
and make damn good parents too. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Likewise true.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">It is
actually easier to have more children if you are NOT
in a monogamous relationship for both genders.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
If a person lacks a spouse who would disapprove of
extramarital sexuality, and if that person cares not whether
pregnancy results from personal sexual activity, then more
children may result.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">A man is
more able to impregnate more women, and a woman would
be more likely to get <span style="right:auto" id="ecxmisspell-0"><span>pregnant</span></span> with
more men.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Marriage may have a counter-intuitive prophylactic effect as a
result of each partner encouraging more responsibility from
the other without regard to partner gender.<br>
<br>
More irresponsible, less thoughtful, people may cause more
pregnancies without regard to partner gender if they are not
monogamous. If they are monogamous fewer pregnancies will
result within same-sex couples, whether or not they are
married.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">People
should not, or be socially engineered to marry a
person of a gender they are not attracted to, that is
unfair to one or both of them.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I am not suggesting unwanted marriage. Remaining single is
just as available an option.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">As well
as others that could be deprived of their true
affections and love. </span></div>
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto"></span> </div>
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">Marriage
should ALWAYS be about two consenting adults who love
each other.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
How romantic. And in many cases, how unrealistic. Over the
centuries marriage has more often been an arrangement
implementing social practicalities rather than love. Given the
intractable societal burdens of overpopulation, societal
concerns may well trump personal preferences for multiple
reasons -- food sharing, housing sharing, and many facets of
more efficient societal use of many limited resources.<br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:1342352271.4452.YahooMailNeo@web121803.mail.ne1.yahoo.com">
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);background-color:rgb(255,\00000d\00000a 255,\00000d\00000a\00000d\00000a 255);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<div style="right:auto"><span style="right:auto">And
nothing else. People deserve nothing less.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Whether or not our current mixture of preferences will survive
increasing population pressures is both uncertain and
unlikely.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ken<br>
<br>
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