<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma, new york, times, serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ken attempts to defend his argument with;</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">"</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">Two people of the same sex physically cannot procreate. In order for such a couple to have children, assistance of a person outside of the marriage is required. Sexual relations by married persons with someone other than a spouse is adultery, so by legal definition, same-sex couples do not have permission to procreate within the standard definition of marital fidelity, which presumes opposite-sex couples for reproductive purposes."</SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">It is <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN>immaterial</SPAN></SPAN> if a same gendered couple adds children to the world with assistance from an opposite gendered person outside the marriage. They have still added children to the world and it does nothing to <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-1><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">strengthen</SPAN></SPAN> your argument that it would resul<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR>t in reducing the number of children in an overpopulated world.</SPAN></SPAN></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" class=mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-2><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN id=misspell-0 class=mark>Surrogating</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> for a couple, in the eyes of the law, and to anyone with a reasonable sense of fairness, is not the same thing as <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-3><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">adultery</SPAN> (betraying a relationship)</SPAN>, especially when it is a medical <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-4><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">necessity</SPAN></SPAN>.</SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">And continues his argument with;</SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">"Some of the oldest literature in any human canon deals with marriage mores and social responses to them. For example, in the Western canon, the Greek Odyssey considers the relationship between the returning King Odysseus and his wife Penelope. The nature of the relationships between men and women, legally, socially, and otherwise, have changed since those days and conditions, and likely will continue to change as humanity faces, or refuses to face, continuing changes in our physical and social environments. To the extent these messages encourage intelligent open-mindedness while searching for workable contemporary solutions, they may have some value."</SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I am not debating the historical accuracy that <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" class=mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-7>marriage</SPAN></SPAN> in the past was not done for purposes other than for love by two free consenting adults. Evidence to the contrary is <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" class=mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-8>apparent</SPAN> even today. My point, is that no person should be forced to marry another person for reasons other than for love of that person. Both persons should be taking the vow free from any other considerations, economic and social. Swearing to "love, honor, and cherish" someone until the end of your life is <SPAN class=mark><SPAN id=misspell-9>perjury</SPAN></SPAN>, bearing false witness, and cruel to that person if you really don't mean it at the time you say it. </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Your argument, that people should marry someone of the same gender to reduce the human population, boils down to saying everyone should engage only in gay sex for the purposes of reducing pregnancies. Which is, shy of any other respectable world, silly.</SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">The only possible strength to your argument might be, that some people might get married to a same gendered friend for the tax and medical benefits. But again, that would be morally wrong to do that, in my personal opinion. </SPAN></SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan J. Arnold</SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Kenneth Marcy <kmmos1@frontier.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> viz <vision2020@moscow.com> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, July 15, 2012 11:38 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Same sex marriage<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<DIV class=yiv1733458957moz-cite-prefix>On 7/15/2012 8:03 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<BR></DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN>Ken writes,</SPAN> <BR></DIV>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto">"Marriage has to do with, among other things, with whether people have social permission to procreate. Same-sex marriage implies such permission is not granted to individuals within that relationship."</DIV>
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<DIV>No it doesn't. People in same sex <SPAN id=yiv1733458957misspell-0><SPAN>marriage</SPAN></SPAN> have children, and are allowed to have children.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Two people of the same sex physically cannot procreate. In order for such a couple to have children, assistance of a person outside of the marriage is required. Sexual relations by married persons with someone other than a spouse is adultery, so by legal definition, same-sex couples do not have permission to procreate within the standard definition of marital fidelity, which presumes opposite-sex couples for reproductive purposes.<BR><BR>Notwithstanding the truth of the nitpicking legalese, the fact of the matter is that some same-sex couples have legitimate children from various sources. Some were adopted, some came to a marriage from one spouse's previous relationship. Others were conceived from sperm donors, and yet others the old-fashioned way with previously
arranged permission of both spouses to one another.<BR><BR>The point is that special procreative permissions are needed by same-sex couples that are not needed by opposite-sex couples to avoid adulterous entanglements. Same-sex spouses may be happy to grant such permissions, but a highly overpopulated society working to curb population growth may not agree by default. Whether or not that is fair, equitable, and just <SPAN id=misspell-1 class=mark>vis</SPAN>-à-<SPAN id=misspell-2 class=mark>vis</SPAN> heterosexual couples is an ongoing discussion topic.<BR><BR>
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<DIV>And <SPAN id=yiv1733458957misspell-1><SPAN>finishes</SPAN></SPAN> with,</DIV>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto">"How romantic. And in many cases, how unrealistic. Over the centuries marriage has more often been an arrangement implementing social practicalities rather than love. Given the intractable societal burdens of overpopulation, societal concerns may well trump personal preferences for multiple reasons -- food sharing, housing sharing, and many facets of more efficient societal use of many limited resources."</DIV>
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<DIV><SPAN id=yiv1733458957misspell-3><SPAN>Marriage</SPAN></SPAN> should be a statement that two people want to be together, for no other reason than they want to be, not because of social engineering.</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Some of the oldest literature in any human canon deals with marriage mores and social responses to them. For example, in the Western canon, the Greek Odyssey considers the relationship between the returning King Odysseus and his wife Penelope. The nature of the relationships between men and women, legally, socially, and otherwise, have changed since those days and conditions, and likely will continue to change as humanity faces, or refuses to face, continuing changes in our physical and social environments. To the extent these messages encourage intelligent open-mindedness while searching for workable contemporary solutions, they may have some
value.<BR><BR><BR>Ken<BR></DIV></DIV><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-3 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net/</A><BR> <SPAN id=misspell-4 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>