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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/14/2012 11:06 AM, Joe Campbell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>This is my last post. You keep twisting what I am taking
great pains to explain.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I see it as failing to come around to your way of thinking, but
that's as nevermind.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>People have a choice to go to a website; not always so with
regard to a building, especially this one. I doubt as someone is
walking through the building and sees a confederate flag their
first thought is "history lesson."</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I wonder what they do think. "OMG! We're being attacked by the
Confederate Army!" or, maybe "Run for your lives! They're going to
enslave us all!"<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The idea that some people find symbols of slavery -- and like
it or not that's what the confederate flag is -- offensive is
not an indication that those folks are too sensitive. If
anything it is an indication of your lack of sensitivity and
good judgment that you fail to realize how this flag is more
than a flag.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
See, this is where my problem lies. Because I don't see that flag
as a symbol of slavery. Some people might, but I don't. I don't
buy into the narrative that the North was completely altruistic and
the South just wanted to enslave people out of pure evil. That's
about as accurate as calling the Civil War the War of Northern
Aggression. Both may have some truth to them, but I would bet
almost anything that what the "cause" was for the war is far more
complicated than either of those suggest.<br>
<br>
Also, must you always try to denigrate me in some way? I do not
lack sensitivity or good judgment simply because I disagree with you
on this.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not criticizing the display or the people who promoted
it. I haven't seen it. I'm criticizing your general arguments,
all of which are bad. I'm criticizing you and your continual
defense of offensive symbols and documents associated with
hatred and bigotry. This is nothing new. You've been doing this
for years and I've been criticizing you for years.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The problem with supporting freedom of expression is that you end up
defending all the outliers that people love to hate. Everyone in
the majority doesn't need me to defend them. I've said *that* time
and time again over the years. Maybe you've missed it. If you want
to not offend anyone, you're stuck. You can't even keep quiet,
because some people might find just that offensive. Whether
something could possibly offend someone is a horrible metric to use
in determining if it should be displayed in public. It's completely
illogical and unworkable. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My main point in nearly all of my comments to your posts is
simple, though you continue to fail to appreciate it. There is
NO such thing as the right to offend; you can't hide behind free
speech or educational opportunity in an effort to do so.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
If there is no right to offend, then none of us can say much of
anything. I find that situation offensive.<br>
<br>
Want to put up a display of shoes in a store? What about people
missing one or both feet? Isn't that insensitive? Want to display
your love of chewing gum? What about loved ones of people who have
choked on chewing gum? Your love of Pokemon? What about the kid
that gets beat up every day because of his Pokemon lunch box? A
beautiful painted picture of a pine forest? What about loved ones
of loggers that have lost their lives in a logging accident?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:549FDFEB-BD36-4B3B-B27B-A5E55B60D5A0@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div><br>
On Jul 14, 2012, at 9:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
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<div><span></span></div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
We're talking about a historical display in which the use of
a flag from that time period simply as a prop makes sense.
Do you think it was the intent of the historical society to
offend people who... are easily offended by this symbol?<br>
<br>
You seem to be arguing that we shouldn't, for example, show
an image of a swastika on a web page that explains what the
swastika is. Are these images *so* offensive that we need
to eradicate them from our society completely? If so, how
do you plan on getting every single person on-board with
this?<br>
<br>
I just think that the right not to be offended is
subordinate to the right to free expression. Of course,
we're talking about the Courthouse here which brings in
different issues, I realize. But generally, I think this is
true.<br>
<br>
I'll leave it to the historical society or whoever it was
that put up this display to defend it's educational value. <br>
<br>
I just don't understand the vehemence here. I get offended
occasionally by things I see on TV or signs or the
occasional commercial or advertisement I run across. When
that happens, I shake my head at their foolishness,
recognize that people have other viewpoints and the right to
express them, and move on without creating a big stink about
it. In my opinion, if everybody did that we'd live in a
much less confrontational and less divisive world.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/14/2012 07:17 AM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:C889DFF0-EAEA-4188-9C35-8933A2A4E0A8@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>You are frustrating to talk to. First, it was a bit of
a joke. Also, you're not tracking the quantity terms: all,
some, etc. My view is not that ALL herpes displays should
be banned. Of course such things COULD be helpful. But
when and where and for what purpose? IN GENERAL were
someone to say "There's a herpes display downtown" and it
turned out not to be at Gritman, it should make you
scratch your head.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think Idaho and our town in particular is not in need
of a confederacy flag on display. Has anyone forgotten
about the civil war? Is there anyone who might see the
display who would learn something new? I just don't see
it. The educational value of the display is little or
nothing. You haven't done much to convince me otherwise.
Nor do you seem to care about the particulars. Your view
seems to be that we need to display offensive symbols, or
at the very least that every display of everything
offensive symbol needs to be defended, least we lose our
God-given right to offend!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That is an odd, curious view. Not every instance of
every offensive symbol has educational value. I think the
burden is on the defender of the display of the offensive
symbol to show that it has educational value that
overrides its offensive nature and you're not doing that
because you're speaking in generalities and not about the
particular display itself. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My view is that there is NO general defense of the
display of offensive symbols. If someone wants to educate
that is fine but I don't see the educational value in this
case. You don't seem to care.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Jul 13, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Why not put up a display about (for example) herpes?
What it is, how you get it, how you can recognize it,
how you can avoid it, what are the available
treatments for it, etc. If some society did put up a
display about this in the Courthouse, I certainly
wouldn't object to it. It's educational, it's a
problem that education can help with, an so forth.
What it would not be, presumably, is some kind of
glorification of the state of having herpes.<br>
<br>
I also object to the simple idea that any display of
the Confederate flag in any context is always meant as
support for the idea of slavery. I can't think of a
symbol that so immediately makes you think "Civil War"
than either the Confederate flag or the Union Jack, so
(not being subject to being offended every time I turn
around) finding one in a display that discusses some
aspect of the Civil War makes perfect sense to me. <br>
<br>
I don't have kids, but if I did, I would want them to
live in a world where they would know what the Civil
War was about and what herpes is. Having more
information about incest (think genetic reasons not to
do it) and rodent infestations (possible health
concerns) wouldn't hurt them, either.<br>
<br>
I also object to your snarky "Well, most of us at
least." line. Arguing for the use of the Confederate
flag as a device for decorating a display about
something that is connected to that war does not mean
that I don't know about the ills of slavery. Do you
really think I treat slavery as something other than
an evil upon our society? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/13/2012 01:03 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+fbP8wAL8JeuF-7M3ExeFo6cSyKhXYaw7fwaZqAhqu8D0Q4aw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Why not a display about herpes, or incest,
or rodent infestation? Wouldn't want to censor those,
would we? After all, we don't want to sugarcoat the
horrible world we live in! <br>
<br>
What good does it do? None. We all know about the ills
of slavery. Well, most of us at least. Joe<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 12:38
PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div><br>
One doesn't nuance slavery, but we shouldn't
sugar-coat it either. It's a historical
display. We shouldn't be self-censoring it
because people might find the confederate flag
offensive. Some people would find the union
flag offensive, if they had ancestors that
died on that side of the war.<br>
<br>
As a community, we should not be afraid to
look at this display unflinchingly and
remember the positives and the negatives of
that conflict. Be very, very careful about
self-censoring our history. As a country we
have done some pretty bad things, to each
other and to people outside our borders, and
those things should be remembered.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/13/2012 11:56 AM, Rosemary Huskey wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
would call a confederate flag placed in
a display about a confederate soldier
with ties to Latah County A Celebratory
Nod to Racism. Help me to understand
how one nuances slavery, Paul. If you
are under the impression that tolerance
of the intolerable is a badge of liberal
honor, then I assume you understand
completely why I despise and mock the
latte sipping liberals that are so thick
on the ground in Latah County. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rose</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com"
target="_blank">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Rumelhart<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 13, 2012
11:35 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Joe Campbell<br>
<b>Cc:</b> viz<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020]
Welcome to Confederate Latah County
. . .</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Would you call placing a confederate
flag in a cabinet housing an historical
display about a confederate soldier that
has a tie to Latah County in the Latah
County Courthouse indefensible?<br>
<br>
Because I wouldn't.<br>
<br>
Also, the one-dimensional liberal /
conservative axis is failing us here.
We need more nuance in American politics
than that.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/13/2012 09:47 AM, Joe Campbell
wrote:</p>
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style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I think it is best
to avoid defending the indefensible,
anything to do with slavery in
particular. There are A LOT of better
uses for your words and your
motivations will always be questioned
-- no matter how many times you call
yourself a liberal.<br>
<br>
Joe</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:33 AM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
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style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
You have to walk on eggshells
around here, lest your honest
opinion be mistaken as an attack
on all things liberal. Which is
ironic because I consider myself
to be a liberal (at least on some
issues). And I hate walking on
eggshells.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/13/2012 12:25 AM, Scott
Dredge wrote:</p>
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style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Wow!
- welcome back to the V Paul.
You're a much better man than I
am! [note to myself: never share
a painful personal experience
trying to make a perfectly valid
point on the V lest you be
savagely crucified by 'holier
than thou' Tom and Donovan)<br>
<br>
<span style="border:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><mime-attachment.jpg></span>-
<span style="border:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><(null)></span>----------------
<span style="border:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in"><(null)></span></p>
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style="text-align:center"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2"
width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Date:
Thu, 12 Jul 2012 18:13:51
-0700<br>
</p>
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