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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/09/2012 07:42 PM, Donovan Arnold
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1341888133.72259.YahooMailNeo@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Paul,</span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Frankly, I
don't care what alternate realities you <span style="RIGHT:
auto" id="misspell-0"><span style="RIGHT: auto">believe </span></span>are
true either. However, I do care that you slander the <span
style="RIGHT: auto" id="misspell-0"><span>professional</span></span>
reputations of nurses and misrepresent their scope of
practice by claiming that they have the <span style="RIGHT:
auto" id="misspell-1"><span style="RIGHT: auto">discretion</span></span>
to decide to give as much or little insulin to a diabetic as
their patients spouse dictates. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yet, I've SEEN IT HAPPEN. <br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1341888133.72259.YahooMailNeo@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">You are not
only saying, one nurse, but all the all nurses did this, and
the record keepers and <span style="RIGHT: auto"
id="misspell-2"><span>pharmacists</span></span> also
conspired in the cover-up. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Then there were the murders of journalists to keep it from hitting
the news, and payoffs to politicians, and I forget what else.<br>
<br>
Really, is this so hard to understand? The choice was, give my mom
insulin shots as prescribed, or allow my dad to use her insulin pump
to give her a better dosage over a long period of time, which is
actually healthier for her. Defer to him because he knew how to use
it, and because they had no clue how to.<br>
<br>
You know what, forget it. Go ahead and live in this world where no
one would ever decide to let my dad do this. It must be more
comfortable there. I grew up in the real world, though, and know
what I saw.<br>
<br>
You're not worth it. Next you'll tell me I don't really exist, or
that my whole life has been a dream. Or that Obama wants to get rid
of the Patriot Act.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1341888133.72259.YahooMailNeo@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: tahoma,new york,times,serif; font-size:
12pt;">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">You expect
me to <span style="RIGHT: auto" id="misspell-3"><span>believe</span></span>
an entire medical care team participated in the criminal
reckless endangerment of a patient. That they adjusted
insulin injections that could kill a patient quickly, simple
on the gut feeling of the patients spouse? Maybe one nurse
is that stupid. Maybe two nurses are that negligent, but not
an entire medical team. </span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Sorry Paul, I
have been to dozens of <span style="RIGHT: auto"
id="misspell-4"><span>hospitals</span></span> and medical
facilities, worked with dozens of doctors, hundreds of
nurses, and taken care or interacted with a thousand
patients over the last decade. I know <span style="RIGHT:
auto" id="misspell-5"><span>enough</span></span> to know
that your story is <var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var>hogwash. </span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">My bet, the
nurses just nodded and said, "Yes, Mr. <span style="RIGHT:
auto" id="misspell-6">Rumelhart</span>, we will.", and
went on to administer the exact dosage the doctor prescribed
and another nurse watched them <span style="RIGHT: auto"
id="misspell-7"><span>prepare</span></span>. I see them do
it all time with nagging patients and their family members,
as they have to because many people think they know more
than the doctors. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1341888133.72259.YahooMailNeo@web121806.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma,
new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan J.
Arnold</span></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto" dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"
size="2">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Paul
Rumelhart <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a>; Joe
Campbell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 9, 2012 2:44 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media
Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div style="RIGHT: auto" id="yiv787900379">
<div style="RIGHT: auto">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times
new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span>Ding, ding, ding! You win another hearty
"FUCK YOU !!!1!!!!eleven!!1!". <br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Why is it so hard for you to realize that
my dad might have known more about this one area
of my mother's care? And that someone who cared
more about their <span id="misspell-2"
class="mark">patient's</span> health than
following some insulin chart might have bowed to
my dad's knowledge on this? All it would usually
take is a couple of times of my dad saying "you
need to give her a bigger bolus or she's going to
have a dangerously high blood sugar" and having it
happen for them to realize that they had a <span
id="misspell-3" class="mark">bonafide</span>
expert in the room.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Why do I even care what you think? That's
really the question. The answer is: I don't.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto" dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial" size="2">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a>;
Joe Campbell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 9, 2012 12:46 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public
Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the
Burning Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div style="RIGHT: auto" id="yiv787900379">
<div style="RIGHT: auto">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;
FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif;
COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span><span>"Jesus jumping Christ on a
pogo stick."</span></span></div>
<div><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span>Oh, was He in the room too?
I always thought it was a cross He was
on. But now that you mention it, it
does kind of look like an ancient
Roman Pogo stick. </span></span></div>
<div><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span>I have no doubt that your
mother came close to dying several
times if all the doctors and nurses
deferred to your dad for medical
advice. </span></span></div>
<div><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span>Doctors <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-0">usually
listen</span>, and then present
available medical options to patients
(chemo, transplant, death). Nurses ask
for patient preferences (like food,
number of blankets, religion) and
follow doctors orders, to the T. No
competent doctor or nurse defers their
medical training to a <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-1"><span>patients</span></span>
spouse, even if they are too a doctor
or a nurse, it is dangerous, stupid,
and illegal. <var
id="yiv787900379yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></span></div>
<div><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span>And I have seen an apple
float to the ceiling, when the room
was filled with water. So, even that <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-0"><span>scenario</span></span>
seems more likely than your story. </span></span></div>
<div><span><span></span></span> </div>
<div><span><span>Donovan J. Arnold</span></span></div>
<div><br class="yiv787900379yui-cursor">
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york,
times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman,
new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto" dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial" size="2">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a>;
Joe Campbell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 9, 2012 12:46 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Institute for
Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the
Forest for the Burning Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"
id="yiv787900379">
<div style="RIGHT: auto">
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff;
FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new
york, times, serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span>Go fuck yourself. Yes,
I do happen to remember times
when my mother was on the
verge of dying very clearly.
There were quite a lot of
them. I think it's amazing
that you would assume I'm
misremembering because no
medical professional would
ever defer to a <span
id="misspell-6" class="mark">patient's</span>
spouse on treatment. Clearly
it does happen, because I saw
it happen. I remember the
nurses consulting with my dad
on it, and I remember them
deferring to him when he was
with her, which was usually as
close to 24x7 as he could
arrange. I wasn't a babe in a
basket, I was out of college
for many of them.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>I'm not telling you I
dropped an apple and it
floated up to the fucking
ceiling. I'm telling you that
a trained professional
recognized my dad's expertise
in this matter and acted
accordingly.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Jesus jumping Christ on
a pogo stick.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new
roman, new york, times, serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="FONT-FAMILY: times
new roman, new york, times,
serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div style="RIGHT: auto"
dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"
size="2">
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">From:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a>;
Joe Campbell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 9, 2012 11:00
AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] Institute
for Public Accuracy:
"Media Miss the Forest for
the Burning Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"
id="yiv787900379">
<div style="RIGHT: auto">
<div
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#fff; FONT-FAMILY:
tahoma, new york, times,
serif; COLOR: #000;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div><span>Paul, <var
id="yiv787900379yui-ie-cursor"></var>I'm
sure that is the way
you remember it. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span></span><span>Donovan
J. Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:
tahoma, new york,
times, serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:
times new roman, new
york, times, serif;
FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial"
size="2">
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">From:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a>;
Joe Campbell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July 9,
2012 9:19 AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020]
Institute for
Public Accuracy:
"Media Miss the
Forest for the
Burning Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div style="RIGHT:
auto"
id="yiv787900379">
<div style="RIGHT:
auto">
<div
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#fff;
FONT-FAMILY:
times new
roman, new
york, times,
serif; COLOR:
#000;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div><span>I
saw it first
hand,
Donovan.
There might be
a nice sliding
scale for
insulin
somewhere, but
we got really
good at
determining
what amounts
of insulin to
input to the
machine. You
had to take
into account
how much
activity she
had had and
how much she
was expected
to have, what
her general
condition was
(fatigued,
fighting an
infection,
whatever),
what she ate
and what the
timing of it
was, what her
current blood
sugar is and
what it was
earlier, and
probably other
things I have
forgotten. We
tried to let
the medical
staff make the
choices, but
that caused
blood sugars
outside the
acceptable
ranges at
times. So
they
determined
that my dad
knew more
about it than
they did and
deferred to
him.</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>I
was there,
sir, I saw it
for myself.
I'm not lying
to you. I'm
not making it
up. I
remember it as
if it were
yesterday.<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
<span></span></div>
<div><span>Paul<br>
</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:
times new
roman, new
york, times,
serif;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:
times new
roman, new
york, times,
serif;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial"
size="2">
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">From:</span></b>
Donovan Arnold
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a>;
Joe Campbell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July
9, 2012 12:44
AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Vision2020]
Institute for
Public
Accuracy:
"Media Miss
the Forest for
the Burning
Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<div
style="RIGHT:
auto"
id="yiv787900379">
<div
style="RIGHT:
auto">
<div
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
#fff;
FONT-FAMILY:
tahoma, new
york, times,
serif; COLOR:
#000;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div>As a <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-0" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-2"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-10" class="mark">CNA</span></span></span>,
I find that
story hard to
believe. The
amount of <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-1"><span>insulin</span></span> given is not a
guessing game.
The number of
units given
are by a
doctor's
prescription
and a sliding
scale based on
their blood
glucose
reading. Any
medical staff
that doesn't
give that
amount or
observes that
amount
given is
subject to a
lawsuit and
loss of their
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-3"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-11" class="mark">licens</span></span><var
id="yiv787900379yui-ie-cursor"></var>e or certification, regardless of
what a spouse
or patient
insists upon
giving or
getting. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Doctors
may be wrong
about the
facts, they
may not have
all the
information or
disbelieve a
patients <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-2"><span>testimony</span></span>, but they know
a great
deal more of
what to do
based on the
facts. That is
why they have
a license to
practice
medicine. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Also,
when you
second guess
your doctor,
you can do a
great deal of
harm to
yourself. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan
J. Arnold</div>
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:
tahoma, new
york, times,
serif;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div
style="FONT-FAMILY:
times new
roman, new
york, times,
serif;
FONT-SIZE:
12pt">
<div dir="ltr"><font
face="Arial"
size="2">
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">From:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">To:</span></b>
Joe Campbell
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Cc:</span></b>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">"vision2020@moscow.com"</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a>
<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, July
9, 2012 12:42
AM<br>
<b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">Subject:</span></b>
Re:
[Vision2020]
Institute for
Public
Accuracy:
"Media Miss
the Forest for
the Burning
Trees"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
"If your
doctor tells
you something,
and 90% of the
other doctors
say <br>
the same
thing, yet
Paul tells you
something
different,
whom do you <br>
believe? Paul?
Because
medicine is
uncertain?"<br>
<br>
Wouldn't that
depend greatly
on exactly why
I claim that
the doctors
are <br>
wrong? While
you will go on
believing your
doctor is
infallible,
maybe <br>
Roger will
actually
evaluate what
I have to say
and bring it
up with his <br>
doctor next
time he sees
him or her?<br>
<br>
Always
assuming the
experts know
best can be
dangerous,
too.<br>
<br>
Case in
point: my mom
was a Type I
diabetic (she
completely
lost the <br>
ability to
make insulin
at age 17) and
was in the
hospital often
for <br>
diabetes-related
problems.
There were
plenty of
times where if
my dad <br>
hadn't been
watching
closely, the
medical staff
might have
done <br>
something
dangerous.
Usually having
to do with how
much insulin
to give <br>
her via her
insulin pump.
Too little,
and she can go
unconscious
and <br>
die, too much
can cause a
sordid list of
problems from
organ damage
to <br>
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-2"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-5"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-13" class="mark">neuropathy</span></span></span>. It made
sense, my dad
was used to
working with
my mom to <br>
estimate how
much of a
basal rate was
needed and how
much to give
as an <br>
extra amount
to counteract
what she just
ate (her
"bolus"
amount). The
<br>
doctors and
nurses that
worked with my
mom regularly
learned to
defer to <br>
my dad's
judgment on
her insulin
dosages. I
became pretty
good at it, <br>
too. Blind
trust in
medical
authority
might have
killed my
mother long <br>
before she
actually
died.
Diabetes is a
horrible
disease.<br>
<br>
Perhaps that's
where I
learned to be
skeptical of
even expert
opinion.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 07/08/2012
11:05 PM, Joe
Campbell
wrote:<br>
> <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-3"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-6"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-14" class="mark">Ok</span></span></span> Roger. You owe me
$100. Don't be
too hard on
me. After all,
I'm just a
skeptic.
Whether you
owe it to me
is subject to
debate, at
least
according to
me. If you're
a critical
thinker,
you'll pay up.
So pay up.<br>
><br>
> These
arguments
don't work on
debt, and
there is no
reason to
think they
work on the
environment
either. What
matters is the
evidence. My
point is, in
most cases
non-scientists
are not in a
position to
say. I won't
care what Paul
says about
this issue
until he
publishes a
paper on the
topic in a
peer-reviewed
journal. You
can believe
what you wish.<br>
><br>
> If your
doctor tells
you something,
and 90% of the
other doctors
say the same
thing, yet
Paul tells you
something
different,
whom do you
believe? Paul?
Because
medicine is
uncertain?<br>
><br>
> Nonsense.
You trust the
doctors
because they
are the
experts. What
makes climate
science
different?<br>
><br>
> Joe<br>
><br>
> On Jul 8,
2012, at 9:36
PM, <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-4"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-7"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-15" class="mark">lfalen</span></span></span> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> You
guys are being
too hard on
Paul. While
there is
climate
change, the
full effects
and causes are
subject to
debate and
critical
review. You
tout critical
thinking. That
is all Paul is
doing. To
blandly accept
every thing
that is put
out by Climate
Scientists is
not engaging
in critical
thinking.<br>
>> Roger<br>
>>
-----Original
message-----<br>
>> From:
Joe Campbell <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
>> Date:
Sun, 08 Jul
2012 17:49:43
-0700<br>
>> To:
Paul Rumelhart
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
>>
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020]
Institute for
Public
Accuracy:
"Media Miss
the Forest for
the Burning
Trees"<br>
>><br>
>>>
I'm not
criticizing
criticism and
debate. I'm
criticizing
you; we're
debating. I'll
respond to the
longer post
later. Joe<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>>
On Jul 8,
2012, at 4:40
PM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>>
Does "validly
express <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-7" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-10"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-18" class="mark">one's</span></span></span>
positions on
the findings
of science"
equate to
"conform to
the scientific
consensus"?
Is there no
room for
criticism and
debate?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
Paul<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>
On 07/08/2012
11:10 AM, Sam
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-8"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-11"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-19" class="mark">Scripter</span></span></span> wrote:<br>
>>>>>
Good post,
Joe!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
I appreciate
the
"pains"/time/effort
you take to
carefully,
fully explain
your points
about how to
validly
express <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-9" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-12"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-20" class="mark">one's</span></span></span>
position on
the findings
of science.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Thank you!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Sam S<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
--------
Original
message
--------<br>
>>>>>
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020]
Institute for
Public
Accuracy:
"Media Miss
the Forest for
the Burning
Trees"<br>
>>>>>
From: Joe
Campbell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>
To: Paul
Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><br>
>>>>>
CC: Moscow
Vision 2020
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Two other
points worth
making.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
First, you
would come off
as something
other than a
spokesman for
a<br>
>>>>>
radical,
ill-informed,
politically
motivated
position if
your<br>
>>>>>
criticisms
went both
ways. You like
to point out
"flaws" in
climate<br>
>>>>>
science. But
are there no
flaws in the
arguments of
their
detractors?<br>
>>>>>
No fallacies,
no prejudices,
no false
reports, no
political<br>
>>>>>
motivations?
Doubtful.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Second, in
your initial
post, at the
bottom of this
one, you list<br>
>>>>>
several
complaints
about the
political
motivations
lurking behind<br>
>>>>>
climate
science. But
this makes it
seem as if
climate
science is<br>
>>>>>
somehow
separated from
the rest of
science and
the academy
and nothing<br>
>>>>>
can be further
from the
truth.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
At <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-11"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-14"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-22" class="mark">WSU</span></span></span>, climate
scientists
work within
the School of
Earth and<br>
>>>>>
Environmental
Sciences
(SEES), which
is made up of
scientists
from a<br>
>>>>>
multitude of
disciplines
such as
geology,
geochemistry,
ecology,<br>
>>>>>
hydrology,
microbiology,
and marine
biology. Were
you to poll
these<br>
>>>>>
folks --
indeed, were
you to poll
scientists in
general --
you'd find<br>
>>>>>
that there is
an
overwhelming
consensus
among them
about the
impact of<br>
>>>>>
human behavior
on global
warming. Thus,
if we are to
believe your<br>
>>>>>
reports of
bias among
climate
scientists,
the conspiracy
would be more<br>
>>>>>
widespread
than you
suggest,
involving not
just climate
scientists but<br>
>>>>>
the entire
scientific
community,
perhaps all of
the academy.
In the<br>
>>>>>
end, we're
left with a
fairytale
conspiracy
theory that is<br>
>>>>>
preposterous
and
unbelievable.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Just to note
one example,
you constantly
complain about
problems with<br>
>>>>>
computer
models when
making
large-scale
claims about
global climate<br>
>>>>>
change but did
you know that
these models
are used in
other areas of<br>
>>>>>
science as
well? A quick
scan of some
of the
research
interests of<br>
>>>>>
members of
SEES makes the
point. One
professor's
"research uses<br>
>>>>>
computer
simulation
models to help
us understand
the recent
problems<br>
>>>>>
in the
electric power
industry."
Another
"combines
field
measurements<br>
>>>>>
with
theoretical
models and
computer
simulations to
shed light on<br>
>>>>>
natural water
flows, mixing,
and sediment
transport."
This is
research<br>
>>>>>
that is funded
by competitive
national
grants and
provides
information<br>
>>>>>
that is
actually used
to solve
real-world
problems. Why
not<br>
>>>>>
investigate
whether or not
your worries
about computer
models apply
to<br>
>>>>>
these areas of
research as
well? The
flip-side is,
don't you
think<br>
>>>>>
that these
scientists
would all be
standing up on
their
soapboxes<br>
>>>>>
deriding the
claims of
climate
scientists if
their work
were as biased<br>
>>>>>
and fallacious
as you contend
that it is?
Don't you
think they'd
want<br>
>>>>>
to separate
their research
from the
disreputable
research of
climate<br>
>>>>>
scientists if
that work were
as
questionable
as you
contend?
Again, if<br>
>>>>>
we are to
believe any of
your claims,
the political
conspiracy
would<br>
>>>>>
be very wide,
so wide as to
involve the
whole of the
academy.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
As the
Director of
the School of
Politics,
Philosophy,
and Public<br>
>>>>>
Affairs, I
have a keen
interest in
the
connections
between
science,<br>
>>>>>
ethics, and
policy: How
can we take
the
information
that science<br>
>>>>>
provides and
apply it to
the real world
in a way that
is beneficial
to<br>
>>>>>
humanity and
the universe
in general?
Last year we
started a
series of<br>
>>>>>
lectures in an
attempt to
help the
general public
better
understand<br>
>>>>>
complex issues
like global
warming,
bringing
together
experts from a<br>
>>>>>
variety of
fields for
public forums
at least once
a semester.
Last<br>
>>>>>
spring we
brought in
Andrew Light,
a Senior
Fellow at the
Center for<br>
>>>>>
American
Progress, and
formed a panel
discussion
with
representatives<br>
>>>>>
from
biochemistry,
sociology, and
philosophy to
provide
information on<br>
>>>>>
this very
topic. After
brief
presentations
from the
panelists,
there<br>
>>>>>
was a Q&A
where folks
were allowed
to ask
questions and
voice concerns<br>
>>>>>
about these
matters. I
advertised
this on Vision
2020. This is
not the<br>
>>>>>
behavior of
people who
have an agenda
that they want
to trick you
into<br>
>>>>>
believing.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
This year we
promise to
have more
events. I'm in
the process of<br>
>>>>>
organizing a
conference on
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-12"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-15"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-23" class="mark">neurophilosophy</span></span></span>,
investigating
the impact<br>
>>>>>
of
neuroscience
on such areas
as ethics and
the law, and
we're also<br>
>>>>>
inviting Allen
Buchanan,
James B. Duke
Professor of
Philosophy at
Duke<br>
>>>>>
University,
who will
likely give a
talk on
bioethics.
I'll continue
to<br>
>>>>>
advertise
these events
on Vision 2020
and I
encourage you
and others<br>
>>>>>
to attend. In
general, I
encourage you,
Paul, to seek
out local<br>
>>>>>
presentations
by climate
scientists --
I've helped
organize at
least 3<br>
>>>>>
such events
over the last
3 years -- and
to ask
questions
directly to<br>
>>>>>
the scientists
themselves and
see if they
might be able
to respond to<br>
>>>>>
your concerns.
In other
words, instead
of voicing
your concerns
to a<br>
>>>>>
group with no
expertise that
is unable to
evaluate the
merits of your<br>
>>>>>
claims, take
them to the
climate
scientists
themselves and
see what<br>
>>>>>
they say. And
do it in a
public venue.
That way,
folks would be
able<br>
>>>>>
to here both
sides of the
issue and make
a more
informed
decision.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
Best, Joe<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
On Sat, Jul 7,
2012 at 10:21
PM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>>>>>
Can I assume
you have
credentials in
climate
science?
Because,
otherwise,<br>
>>>>>>
you are being
hypocritical
in calling me
out for
"degrading"
the<br>
>>>>>>
conversation
because of my
lack of the
same.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Perhaps I'm
missing some
fundamental
knowledge of
how arguments
work.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Paul<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
________________________________<br>
>>>>>>
From: Ted <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-14" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-17"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-25" class="mark">Moffett</span></span></span>
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>
To: Joe
Campbell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>
Cc: Moscow
Vision 2020
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>
Sent:
Saturday, July
7, 2012 2:03
PM<br>
>>>>>>
Subject: Re:
[Vision2020]
Institute for
Public
Accuracy:
"Media Miss
the<br>
>>>>>>
Forest for the
Burning Trees"<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Thanks for
these comments
phrased in a
manner so easy
to understand,
coming<br>
>>>>>>
from someone
who could
write at a
level that
would be
obtuse for
many.. I'm<br>
>>>>>>
reminded of
the writing
style of
philosopher
Bertrand
Russell<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
When in a
dialog someone
of a
significant
level of
education and<br>
>>>>>>
intelligence
repeatedly
refuses to
admit when it
is pointed out
that they<br>
>>>>>>
have engaged
in significant
omissions,
errors and
misrepresentations<br>
>>>>>>
regarding a
critical
scientific
field, and
promotes what
can be easily<br>
>>>>>>
determined by
most anyone
doing cursory
research of
scientific
peer review,<br>
>>>>>>
to be junk
science, as
though we are
supposed to
take it
seriously,
this<br>
>>>>>>
implies a
factual and/or
argumentative
filter at
work, for
whatever
reason<br>
>>>>>>
or reasons.
Call it a
indication of
an "agenda,"
or who knows
what it is!<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Maybe there is
still some
social value
to such a
degraded
dialog, but it<br>
>>>>>>
ceases to
offer
significant
credible
factual or
augmentative
input of<br>
>>>>>>
interest for
someone who
reaches a
certain level
of competency
in exploring<br>
>>>>>>
the scientific
field
involved.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
On the issue
of complexity
as an argument
for a high
degree of
skepticism<br>
>>>>>>
about the
claims of a
given field of
knowledge, the
human
brain/mind is<br>
>>>>>>
claimed by
some to be the
most complex
object in the
known
universe,<br>
>>>>>>
therefore we
should engage
in a high
degree of
skepticism
about any
claims<br>
>>>>>>
by anyone
about any ones
state of
"mind,"
whether
scientific
claims or
other<br>
>>>>>>
sorts. It
amazes me that
people make
such simple
and easy <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-15" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-18"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-26" class="mark">judgements</span></span></span>
about<br>
>>>>>>
each others
state of mind,
given that
such
propositions
to be credible<br>
>>>>>>
should only be
made by those
with <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-16"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-19"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-27" class="mark">PhDs</span></span></span> in a psychology
or perhaps<br>
>>>>>>
neurobiology
related field,
and even these
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-17"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-20"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-28" class="mark">judgements</span></span></span> it can be
argued are<br>
>>>>>>
very open to
question,
assuming a
vast
complexity is
underpinning
each<br>
>>>>>>
humans state
of mind.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Consider this
dialog with <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-18" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-21"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-29" class="mark">neuroscientist</span></span></span>
Michael <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-19" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-22"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-30" class="mark">Gazzaniga</span></span></span>:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
ALAN <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-20"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-23"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-31" class="mark">ALDA</span></span></span> INTERVIEWS
MICHAEL <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-21" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-24"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-32" class="mark">GAZZANIGA</span></span></span><br>
>>>>>>
Featured on
"The Man with
Two Brains,"<br>
>>>>>>
from the
SCIENTIFIC
AMERICAN
FRONTIERS
special
"Pieces of
Mind."<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm</a><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Alan <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-22"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-25"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-33" class="mark">Alda</span></span></span>:<br>
>>>>>>
I have to say
- and from
talking to you
I think you
feel this way,
too -<br>
>>>>>>
consciousness
is a terrific
thing to have.
It feels good
to have<br>
>>>>>>
consciousness.
When you lose
consciousness
and when you
sense you're
going<br>
>>>>>>
to lose
consciousness,
it doesn't
feel good. You
get a little
nervous about<br>
>>>>>>
that. But what
do you suppose
is the reason
we have
consciousness?
Why has<br>
>>>>>>
it persisted?
What good is
it in terms of
the survival
of the
species?<br>
>>>>>>
Michael <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-23" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-26"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-34" class="mark">Gazzaniga</span></span></span>:<br>
>>>>>>
That's related
to the $64,000
question.
What's it for?
If you want to<br>
>>>>>>
understand
anything,
you've got to
know what it's
for. And it so
permeates<br>
>>>>>>
every thought
we have, you
think, well,
it's for
keeping us
motivated, to<br>
>>>>>>
have these
thoughts, or
whatever. But
you start to
put this stuff
down on<br>
>>>>>>
paper and it
just doesn't
look like
you're saying
much.<br>
>>>>>>
You know,
there's a
bunch of
philosophers
now who are
saying, "A
human<br>
>>>>>>
trying to
understand
consciousness
is like a
nematode
trying to
understand a<br>
>>>>>>
dog." It's
just too big a
problem, and
they kind of
toss it out
the window.<br>
>>>>>>
Well I don't
think we
should do
that. Clearly,
it's going to
take a lot of<br>
>>>>>>
major new
thinking to
really give us
an insight, a
handle on how
we can<br>
>>>>>>
scientifically
talk about
this
phenomenal
awareness that
we all
experience.<br>
>>>>>>
-------------------------------------------<br>
>>>>>>
Vision2020
Post: Ted <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-24" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-27"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-35" class="mark">Moffett</span></span></span><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
On Thu, Jul 5,
2012 at 8:57
AM, Joe
Campbell <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>>>>
wrote:<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
I'm making
claims about
your arguments
and<br>
>>>>>>
when it comes
to judgments
about the
strengths and
weaknesses of<br>
>>>>>>
arguments --
the area of
logic and the
broader area
of
epistemology
--<br>
>>>>>>
there is NO
ONE living on
the <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-25"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-28"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-36" class="mark">Palouse</span></span></span> who is more
qualified than
I am<br>
>>>>>>
(although
there are a
few people who
are as
qualified).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Paul,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Thanks for
helping me to
make my case!<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
The point is
that you DON'T
believe that
smoking causes
lung cancer on<br>
>>>>>>
the basis of
scientific
evidence that
you understand
and evaluate,<br>
>>>>>>
because you
are not a
scientist. You
believe it
because it is
"common<br>
>>>>>>
sense" (which
is irrelevant,
for it merely
boils down to
the fact that<br>
>>>>>>
it seems to
you to be
true) and
because the
experts tell
you it is<br>
>>>>>>
true. You
still haven't
shown a
difference
between the
case of
smoking<br>
>>>>>>
and human
carbon
consumption.
Let's look
more closely
at some of the<br>
>>>>>>
BAD arguments
you give below
for the
supposed
difference.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Two
clarifications
first. My
point was that
unless you are
an actual<br>
>>>>>>
scientist, it
is almost
impossible to
make judgments
about
scientific<br>
>>>>>>
claims on
evidence
alone. In most
cases,
understanding
the evidence<br>
>>>>>>
would require
a high level
of expertise.
This is why
scientific<br>
>>>>>>
beliefs should
be based on
testimony, the
testimony of
experts in the<br>
>>>>>>
field. My
general claim
was that there
is NO basis to
dismiss one
set<br>
>>>>>>
of scientists
(climate
scientists,
say) yet not
dismiss others
as<br>
>>>>>>
well. In my
previous post,
I happened to
mention
scientists who<br>
>>>>>>
specialize in
lung cancer
research but
below I
mention others
since<br>
>>>>>>
they are
helpful in
showing flaws
in your
reasoning.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Also, you
might wonder
how I'm
qualified to
speak about
such matters,<br>
>>>>>>
given that I'm
not a climate
scientist
either. But
I'm not making
any<br>
>>>>>>
claims about
the climate. I
just trust
what the
climate
scientists<br>
>>>>>>
tell me for
reasons given.
I'm making
claims about
your arguments
and<br>
>>>>>>
when it comes
to judgments
about the
strengths and
weaknesses of<br>
>>>>>>
arguments --
the area of
logic and the
broader area
of
epistemology
--<br>
>>>>>>
there is NO
ONE living on
the <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-26"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-29"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-37" class="mark">Palouse</span></span></span> who is more
qualified than
I am<br>
>>>>>>
(although
there are a
few people who
are as
qualified).<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
The points in
(1) are
irrelevant and
were addressed
above. In the<br>
>>>>>>
1950s smoking
seemed to be a
healthy
activity and
was promoted
as<br>
>>>>>>
such. Common
sense turned
out to be
wrong. Common
sense is never
a<br>
>>>>>>
reason for
holding
scientific
beliefs.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-27"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-30"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="misspell-38" class="mark">Wrt</span></span></span> (2), I'd be
willing to bet
that there are
climate
scientists<br>
>>>>>>
working on
these very
questions. In
any event, I'm
not sure what<br>
>>>>>>
evidence you
have to say
otherwise. I
tend to leave
it to
scientists<br>
>>>>>>
to determine
what kinds of
studies they
should or
shouldn't be<br>
>>>>>>
concerned with
in order to
support their
claims. Since
you are not a<br>
>>>>>>
scientist,
these points
are
meaningless.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
For point (3),
it is true
that the
climate is
complex. But
the<br>
>>>>>>
universe is
even MORE
complex. To
the extent
that this
gives you a<br>
>>>>>>
reason to
dismiss
climate
science it
should give
you EVEN MORE
reason<br>
>>>>>>
to dismiss all
of physics for
both the
micro-level of
the universe
and<br>
>>>>>>
the
macro-level of
the universe
are FAR MORE
complex than
the earth's<br>
>>>>>>
climate. This
is just a
general
skeptical
argument that
applies to<br>
>>>>>>
almost ANY
area of
science. Why
accept it <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-28" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-31"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-39" class="mark">wrt</span></span></span>
climate
science but
not,<br>
>>>>>>
say,
cosmology? Why
believe
anything that
Stephen
Hawking says,
for<br>
>>>>>>
instance? Do
you know how
much MORE
complicated
the whole <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-29" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-32"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-40" class="mark">frickin</span></span></span>'<br>
>>>>>>
universe is
when compared
with the
earth's
climate? This
is an absurd,<br>
>>>>>>
BAD, and
irresponsible
argument.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
I've responded
to arguments
like those in
(4) and (5)
before but it<br>
>>>>>>
hasn't seemed
to sink in
yet. Whether
or not a
scientist has
an agenda<br>
>>>>>>
is IRRELEVANT.
What matters
is the
EVIDENCE he or
she has in
support<br>
>>>>>>
of the claims
made. Suppose
you find out
that 99% of
scientists who<br>
>>>>>>
study the
links between
smoking and
lung cancer
went into the
field<br>
>>>>>>
for emotional
and irrational
reasons --
suppose, say,
that members
of<br>
>>>>>>
their family
died of lung
cancer. That
would be
irrelevant and<br>
>>>>>>
shouldn't
cause you to
dismiss their
findings. ALL
that is
relevant is<br>
>>>>>>
the
epistemological
quality of the
evidence,
which can be
judged in<br>
>>>>>>
objective
ways.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
If your
argument were
sound, it
should give
people reason
to dismiss<br>
>>>>>>
EVERYTHING you
say because
you clearly
have an
agenda. You
can't tell<br>
>>>>>>
me that your
concern with
the issue of
global warming
is independent<br>
>>>>>>
of your
political
views or your
personal
habits, that
it is solely<br>
>>>>>>
motivated by
the desire for
objective
truth and
nothing more.
This<br>
>>>>>>
very argument
undermines
everything you
say on Vision
2020 since all<br>
>>>>>>
of it is in
keeping with
your own
political
viewpoints, or
"agenda."<br>
>>>>>>
But people
shouldn't
dismiss your
views merely
because you
happen to<br>
>>>>>>
be interested
in politics.
They should
judge your
views on the
basis<br>
>>>>>>
of the
evidence you
provide in
support of the
claims that
you make.<br>
>>>>>>
They shouldn't
make sweeping
generalizations
about your
claims either;<br>
>>>>>>
they should
evaluate each
argument
individually.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
If your
argument were
sound, we
should dismiss
ALL sciences
related to<br>
>>>>>>
human heath,
since they are
all motivated
by the
subjective
desire to<br>
>>>>>>
help human
beings extend
their lives
and improve
the quality of
their<br>
>>>>>>
lives. Likely
anyone working
in the area of
cancer
research is<br>
>>>>>>
motivated in
part by the
selfish desire
to become THE
person that<br>
>>>>>>
finds the cure
for cancer.
That is
irrelevant.
This is
another
general<br>
>>>>>>
skeptical
argument that
(if sound)
should cause
you to dismiss
much<br>
>>>>>>
more than
climate
science.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
ALL scientific
claims should
be judged by
the merits of
the evidence<br>
>>>>>>
given.
Personal facts
about the
scientists are
ALWAYS
IRRELEVANT.<br>
>>>>>>
People tend to
choose their
vocations for
personal
reasons, not<br>
>>>>>>
because of a
desire to seek
objective
truth.
Scientists are
no<br>
>>>>>>
different in
this regard.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
Best, Joe<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
On Wed, Jul 4,
2012 at 7:16
PM, Paul
Rumelhart <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>
On 07/03/2012
05:42 PM, Joe
Campbell
wrote:<br>
>>>>>>>>
So, Paul, why
believe that
smoking causes
lung disease
if you don't<br>
>>>>>>>>
believe that
human carbon
consumption
has an impact
on global
warming?<br>
>>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>>
Joe<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
First, I'm not
saying that
carbon
consumption is
not having an
impact on<br>
>>>>>>>
global
warming. I'm
saying that
the size of
the impacts
compared to
the<br>
>>>>>>>
more-or-less
unknown
natural
factors is
unknown and
that the <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-31" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-34"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="misspell-42" class="mark">feedbacks</span></span></span><br>
>>>>>>>
from<br>
>>>>>>>
warming in
general are
unknown, among
other things.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
There are
plenty of
reasons, both
scientific and
not, that make
me<br>
>>>>>>>
skeptical<br>
>>>>>>>
of global
warming.
Although
everyone will
assume I'm
just grasping
at<br>
>>>>>>>
straws because
of my
deep-seated
urge to deny
everything
(probably has
to<br>
>>>>>>>
do<br>
>>>>>>>
with my
relationship
with my
mother), I
humbly present
a smattering
of<br>
>>>>>>>
them<br>
>>>>>>>
for your
enjoyment:<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
1. On the
face of it,
the idea is
extraordinary.
Humans, even
with our<br>
>>>>>>>
vaunted
civilization,
are small
potatoes
compared to
the forces of
nature.<br>
>>>>>>>
The only
reason our
carbon
footprint even
makes a dent
compared to
natural<br>
>>>>>>>
forces has to
do with the
small amount
of CO2 in our
atmosphere.
We've<br>
>>>>>>>
had<br>
>>>>>>>
far less of an
impact on the
water cycle,
for example,
or with oxygen<br>
>>>>>>>
levels. Not
saying that it
isn't
possible, but
there is
automatically
a<br>
>>>>>>>
bar<br>
>>>>>>>
that has to be
gotten over
which smoking
causing lung
disease
doesn't<br>
>>>>>>>
have.<br>
>>>>>>>
It should be
common sense
that inhaling
smoke multiple
times a day
for<br>
>>>>>>>
years<br>
>>>>>>>
can have a
deleterious
effect on the
lungs, even
without
bringing in<br>
>>>>>>>
carcinogens.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
2. There are
some obvious
questions that
aren't being
answered
because of<br>
>>>>>>>
the focus on
human
impacts. For
example, what
caused the
earth to heat
up<br>
>>>>>>>
immediately
following the
Little Ice
Age? If we do
not know, how
can we<br>
>>>>>>>
say<br>
>>>>>>>
with any
confidence
that
human-induced
climate change
is to blame
instead<br>
>>>>>>>
of<br>
>>>>>>>
the same
natural
processes
still at
work? What
causes an ice
age to<br>
>>>>>>>
start,<br>
>>>>>>>
and what
brings us out
of one?<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
3. The
climate is
complex, with
multiple <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-32" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-35"
class="yiv787900379mark">feedbacks</span></span> of unknown strength<br>
>>>>>>>
and<br>
>>>>>>>
unknown <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-33" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-36"
class="yiv787900379mark">feedbacks</span></span> of unknown strength.
The sign of
the
combination of<br>
>>>>>>>
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-34"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-37"
class="yiv787900379mark">feedbacks</span></span>
isn't even
known.
Climate models
cannot be that
accurate,
given<br>
>>>>>>>
the above, yet
they are seen
as gospel.
Even when they
make different<br>
>>>>>>>
assumptions
and model
things
different
ways. As long
as they
project a<br>
>>>>>>>
warmer future,
they are added
to the model
average and
used as proof
that<br>
>>>>>>>
global warming
will kill
babies and
cause frogs to
rain from the
sky.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
I imagine that
the mechanisms
for lung
disease from
tobacco are
relatively<br>
>>>>>>>
straight
forward.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
4. Some of
the major
players in the
spotlight on
the side of
global<br>
>>>>>>>
warming<br>
>>>>>>>
are
environmental
activists with
an agenda, as
opposed to
being
objective<br>
>>>>>>>
scientists
just following
the data. For
example,
Timothy <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-35" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-38"
class="yiv787900379mark">Wirth</span></span> (Senator<br>
>>>>>>>
from Colorado
and leader of
the
negotiating
team for the
Kyoto treaty)<br>
>>>>>>>
held<br>
>>>>>>>
a hearing on
global warming
at the
capital. He
called the
Weather Bureau<br>
>>>>>>>
to<br>
>>>>>>>
find out what
day of the
year was
usually the
hottest in DC,
and scheduled<br>
>>>>>>>
the hearing
for that
date. His
team then went
in the night
before the<br>
>>>>>>>
hearing and
opened all the
windows in the
room in which
the hearing
was to<br>
>>>>>>>
be held,
causing the
air
conditioning
to fail to
keep up with
the
heat>>
>> All<br>
>>>>>>>
so that it
could be hot
and muggy when
James Hansen
gave his spiel
about<br>
>>>>>>>
the<br>
>>>>>>>
dangers of
global
warming.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
(<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html"
rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html</a>)<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
The
anti-tobacco
campaigns,
with all their
sheer
propaganda, do
seem to be<br>
>>>>>>>
run by
political
activists, but
that may be
coincidental.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
5. Major
climate
scientists
also appear to
have political
agendas.<br>
>>>>>>>
Michael<br>
>>>>>>>
Mann and his
"hockey stick"
come to mind,
trying to
erase the
Medieval<br>
>>>>>>>
Warm<br>
>>>>>>>
Period and the
Little Ice
Age, using
dubious
statistics,
all so they
could<br>
>>>>>>>
show that
current
warming was
"unprecedented".
All this from
a few<br>
>>>>>>>
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-36"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-39"
class="yiv787900379mark">bristlecone</span></span>
pine trees.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
I haven't
heard of any
of these kinds
of shenanigans
from
scientists<br>
>>>>>>>
studying the
link between
tobacco use
and lung
diseases,
probably
because<br>
>>>>>>>
the links were
relatively
straight
forward. Not
so much the
case with<br>
>>>>>>>
global warming
/ global
climate change
/ global
climate
disruption.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
There are
more, but that
gives you the
gist of it.
But hey, it's
just me<br>
>>>>>>>
being <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-37"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-40"
class="yiv787900379mark">contrarian</span></span>,
right? So
please, move
along.
Nothing to see
here.<br>
>>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>>
Paul<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>>
=======================================================<br>
>>>>>>
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made available
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Internet,<br>
>>>>>>
serving the
communities of
the <span
id="yiv787900379misspell-38"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-41"
class="yiv787900379mark">Palouse</span></span>
since 1994.<br>
>>>>>>
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moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>
>>>>>>
<span
id="yiv787900379misspell-39" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-42"
class="yiv787900379mark">mailto</span></span>:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>><br>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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communities of
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id="yiv787900379misspell-40"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-43"
class="yiv787900379mark">Palouse</span></span>
since 1994.<br>
>>>>>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>
>>>>>
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id="yiv787900379misspell-41" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-44"
class="yiv787900379mark">mailto</span></span>:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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>>>>>
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>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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id="yiv787900379misspell-42"
class="yiv787900379mark"><span id="yiv787900379misspell-45"
class="yiv787900379mark">Palouse</span></span>
since 1994.<br>
>>>>>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>
>>>>>
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id="yiv787900379misspell-43" class="yiv787900379mark"><span
id="yiv787900379misspell-46"
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