<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Yep. Ted's a mouthpiece for the establishment on this issue. I actually refuse to take it at face value and look into it further. Which method is more in tune with the scientific process? When did thinking critically become such a heinous act?</span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>How would you or Ted know if those vaunted Climate Scientists are pulling the wool over your eyes? Or if they are focusing too much on one aspect of the problem? Or are just plain wrong about some things? Or know which side of the bread is buttered and self-censor themselves?<br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>With the charged political arena, accusations of controlling the peer review process, and the cadre of people like yourself and Ted telling us to BELIEVE, (not
to mention the day-to-day the-sky-is-falling pronouncements) I find ample reason to look into this more closely. It may be nothing, but it warrants further review. <br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Do you think it's impossible that I could obtain a degree in climate science? Is it a calling for only the most godly of men, or do you think these guys might actually be mortal? Wouldn't it start just as I'm starting, by reading more on the subject and thinking things through?<br></span></div><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Paul<br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Ted Moffett <starbliss@gmail.com>; Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020@moscow.com> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, July 8, 2012 4:56 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"<br> </font> </div> <br>
<meta http-equiv="x-dns-prefetch-control" content="off"><div id="yiv1344829624"><div><div>There is a difference between Ted's posts and your posts. In general Ted critically reports scientific findings and debates; you criticize and critique them. You need credentials to do what you do; Ted does not need them to do what he does. He acts as a kind of conduit between the scientists and the non-science public, helping the uninformed (like myself) better understand the science. You act like a scientist, pointing out errors and claiming to know that at least on some matters you know better. I can't speak for others but if you wanted me to listen to you, you'd need some kind of expertise. Knowledge by testimony is only good if the testimony is coming from an expert.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe</div><div><br><br></div><div><br>On Jul 7, 2012, at 10:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">Can I assume you have credentials in climate science? Because, otherwise, you are being hypocritical in calling me out for "degrading" the conversation because of my lack of the same.<br><br>Perhaps I'm missing some fundamental knowledge of how arguments work.<br><div><br><span></span></div><div><span>Paul<br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ted Moffett <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" target="_blank"
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a>><br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> Joe Campbell <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>> <br><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow Vision
2020 <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:03 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div id="yiv1344829624">Thanks for these comments phrased in a manner so easy to understand, coming from someone who could write at a level that would be obtuse for many... I'm reminded of the writing style of philosopher Bertrand Russell<br>
<br>When in a dialog someone of a significant level of education and intelligence repeatedly refuses to admit when it is pointed out that they have engaged in significant omissions, errors and misrepresentations regarding a critical scientific field, and promotes what can be easily determined by most anyone doing cursory research of scientific peer review, to be junk science, as though we are supposed to take it seriously, this implies a factual and/or argumentative filter at work, for whatever reason or reasons. Call it a indication of an "agenda," or who knows what it is! <br>
<br>Maybe there is still some social value to such a degraded dialog, but it
ceases to offer significant credible factual or augmentative input of
interest for someone who reaches a certain level of competency in exploring the
scientific field involved.<br><br>On the issue of complexity as an argument for a high degree of skepticism about the claims of a given field of knowledge, the human brain/mind is claimed by some to be the most complex object in the known universe, therefore we should engage in a high degree of skepticism about any claims by anyone about any ones state of "mind," whether scientific claims or other sorts. It amazes me that people make such simple and easy judgements about each others state of mind, given that such propositions to be credible should only be made by those with PhDs in a psychology or perhaps neurobiology related field, and even these judgements it can be argued are very open to question, assuming a vast complexity is underpinning each humans state of mind.<br>
<br>Consider this dialog with neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga:<br><br>ALAN ALDA INTERVIEWS MICHAEL GAZZANIGA
<br>Featured on "The Man with Two Brains," <br>from the SCIENTIFIC
AMERICAN FRONTIERS special "Pieces of Mind."<br><br><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm">http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm</a><br><br><b>Alan Alda:</b>
<div>I have to say - and from talking to you I think you feel this way, too -
consciousness is a terrific thing to have. It feels good to have consciousness.
When you lose consciousness and when you sense you're going to lose
consciousness, it doesn't feel good. You get a little nervous about that. But
what do you suppose is the reason we have consciousness? Why has it persisted?
What good is it in terms of the survival of the species?</div><b>Michael Gazzaniga:</b>
<div>That's related to the $64,000 question. What's it for? If you want to
understand anything, you've got to know what it's for. And it so permeates every
thought we have, you think, well, it's for keeping us motivated, to have these
thoughts, or whatever. But you start to put this stuff down on paper and it just
doesn't look like you're saying much.</div>
<div>You know, there's a bunch of philosophers now who are saying, "A human trying
to understand consciousness is like a nematode trying to understand a dog." It's
just too big a problem, and they kind of toss it out the window. Well I don't
think we should do that. Clearly, it's going to take a lot of major new thinking
to really give us an insight, a handle on how we can scientifically talk about
this phenomenal awareness that we all experience.</div>-------------------------------------------<br>Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett<br><br><div class="yiv1344829624gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<br> I'm making claims about your arguments and<br>
when it comes to judgments about the strengths and weaknesses of<br>
arguments -- the area of logic and the broader area of epistemology --<br>
there is NO ONE living on the Palouse who is more qualified than I am<br>
(although there are a few people who are as qualified).<br><br><blockquote class="yiv1344829624gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Paul,<br>
<br>
Thanks for helping me to make my case!<br>
<br>
The point is that you DON'T believe that smoking causes lung cancer on<br>
the basis of scientific evidence that you understand and evaluate,<br>
because you are not a scientist. You believe it because it is "common<br>
sense" (which is irrelevant, for it merely boils down to the fact that<br>
it seems to you to be true) and because the experts tell you it is<br>
true. You still haven't shown a difference between the case of smoking<br>
and human carbon consumption. Let's look more closely at some of the<br>
BAD arguments you give below for the supposed difference.<br>
<br>
Two clarifications first. My point was that unless you are an actual<br>
scientist, it is almost impossible to make judgments about scientific<br>
claims on evidence alone. In most cases, understanding the evidence<br>
would require a high level of expertise. This is why scientific<br>
beliefs should be based on testimony, the testimony of experts in the<br>
field. My general claim was that there is NO basis to dismiss one set<br>
of scientists (climate scientists, say) yet not dismiss others as<br>
well. In my previous post, I happened to mention scientists who<br>
specialize in lung cancer research but below I mention others since<br>
they are helpful in showing flaws in your reasoning.<br>
<br>
Also, you might wonder how I'm qualified to speak about such matters,<br>
given that I'm not a climate scientist either. But I'm not making any<br>
claims about the climate. I just trust what the climate scientists<br>
tell me for reasons given. I'm making claims about your arguments and<br>
when it comes to judgments about the strengths and weaknesses of<br>
arguments -- the area of logic and the broader area of epistemology --<br>
there is NO ONE living on the Palouse who is more qualified than I am<br>
(although there are a few people who are as qualified).<br>
<br>
The points in (1) are irrelevant and were addressed above. In the<br>
1950s smoking seemed to be a healthy activity and was promoted as<br>
such. Common sense turned out to be wrong. Common sense is never a<br>
reason for holding scientific beliefs.<br>
<br>
Wrt (2), I'd be willing to bet that there are climate scientists<br>
working on these very questions. In any event, I'm not sure what<br>
evidence you have to say otherwise. I tend to leave it to scientists<br>
to determine what kinds of studies they should or shouldn't be<br>
concerned with in order to support their claims. Since you are not a<br>
scientist, these points are meaningless.<br>
<br>
For point (3), it is true that the climate is complex. But the<br>
universe is even MORE complex. To the extent that this gives you a<br>
reason to dismiss climate science it should give you EVEN MORE reason<br>
to dismiss all of physics for both the micro-level of the universe and<br>
the macro-level of the universe are FAR MORE complex than the earth's<br>
climate. This is just a general skeptical argument that applies to<br>
almost ANY area of science. Why accept it wrt climate science but not,<br>
say, cosmology? Why believe anything that Stephen Hawking says, for<br>
instance? Do you know how much MORE complicated the whole frickin'<br>
universe is when compared with the earth's climate? This is an absurd,<br>
BAD, and irresponsible argument.<br>
<br>
I've responded to arguments like those in (4) and (5) before but it<br>
hasn't seemed to sink in yet. Whether or not a scientist has an agenda<br>
is IRRELEVANT. What matters is the EVIDENCE he or she has in support<br>
of the claims made. Suppose you find out that 99% of scientists who<br>
study the links between smoking and lung cancer went into the field<br>
for emotional and irrational reasons -- suppose, say, that members of<br>
their family died of lung cancer. That would be irrelevant and<br>
shouldn't cause you to dismiss their findings. ALL that is relevant is<br>
the epistemological quality of the evidence, which can be judged in<br>
objective ways.<br>
<br>
If your argument were sound, it should give people reason to dismiss<br>
EVERYTHING you say because you clearly have an agenda. You can't tell<br>
me that your concern with the issue of global warming is independent<br>
of your political views or your personal habits, that it is solely<br>
motivated by the desire for objective truth and nothing more. This<br>
very argument undermines everything you say on Vision 2020 since all<br>
of it is in keeping with your own political viewpoints, or "agenda."<br>
But people shouldn't dismiss your views merely because you happen to<br>
be interested in politics. They should judge your views on the basis<br>
of the evidence you provide in support of the claims that you make.<br>
They shouldn't make sweeping generalizations about your claims either;<br>
they should evaluate each argument individually.<br>
<br>
If your argument were sound, we should dismiss ALL sciences related to<br>
human heath, since they are all motivated by the subjective desire to<br>
help human beings extend their lives and improve the quality of their<br>
lives. Likely anyone working in the area of cancer research is<br>
motivated in part by the selfish desire to become THE person that<br>
finds the cure for cancer. That is irrelevant. This is another general<br>
skeptical argument that (if sound) should cause you to dismiss much<br>
more than climate science.<br>
<br>
ALL scientific claims should be judged by the merits of the evidence<br>
given. Personal facts about the scientists are ALWAYS IRRELEVANT.<br>
People tend to choose their vocations for personal reasons, not<br>
because of a desire to seek objective truth. Scientists are no<br>
different in this regard.<br>
<br>
Best, Joe<br>
<div class="yiv1344829624HOEnZb"><div class="yiv1344829624h5"><br>
On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On 07/03/2012 05:42 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> So, Paul, why believe that smoking causes lung disease if you don't<br>
>> believe that human carbon consumption has an impact on global warming?<br>
>><br>
>> Joe<br>
><br>
><br>
> First, I'm not saying that carbon consumption is not having an impact on<br>
> global warming. I'm saying that the size of the impacts compared to the<br>
> more-or-less unknown natural factors is unknown and that the feedbacks from<br>
> warming in general are unknown, among other things.<br>
><br>
> There are plenty of reasons, both scientific and not, that make me skeptical<br>
> of global warming. Although everyone will assume I'm just grasping at<br>
> straws because of my deep-seated urge to deny everything (probably has to do<br>
> with my relationship with my mother), I humbly present a smattering of them<br>
> for your enjoyment:<br>
><br>
> 1. On the face of it, the idea is extraordinary. Humans, even with our<br>
> vaunted civilization, are small potatoes compared to the forces of nature.<br>
> The only reason our carbon footprint even makes a dent compared to natural<br>
> forces has to do with the small amount of CO2 in our atmosphere. We've had<br>
> far less of an impact on the water cycle, for example, or with oxygen<br>
> levels. Not saying that it isn't possible, but there is automatically a bar<br>
> that has to be gotten over which smoking causing lung disease doesn't have.<br>
> It should be common sense that inhaling smoke multiple times a day for years<br>
> can have a deleterious effect on the lungs, even without bringing in<br>
> carcinogens.<br>
><br>
> 2. There are some obvious questions that aren't being answered because of<br>
> the focus on human impacts. For example, what caused the earth to heat up<br>
> immediately following the Little Ice Age? If we do not know, how can we say<br>
> with any confidence that human-induced climate change is to blame instead of<br>
> the same natural processes still at work? What causes an ice age to start,<br>
> and what brings us out of one?<br>
><br>
> 3. The climate is complex, with multiple feedbacks of unknown strength and<br>
> unknown feedbacks of unknown strength. The sign of the combination of<br>
> feedbacks isn't even known. Climate models cannot be that accurate, given<br>
> the above, yet they are seen as gospel. Even when they make different<br>
> assumptions and model things different ways. As long as they project a<br>
> warmer future, they are added to the model average and used as proof that<br>
> global warming will kill babies and cause frogs to rain from the sky.<br>
><br>
> I imagine that the mechanisms for lung disease from tobacco are relatively<br>
> straight forward.<br>
><br>
> 4. Some of the major players in the spotlight on the side of global warming<br>
> are environmental activists with an agenda, as opposed to being objective<br>
> scientists just following the data. For example, Timothy Wirth (Senator<br>
> from Colorado and leader of the negotiating team for the Kyoto treaty) held<br>
> a hearing on global warming at the capital. He called the Weather Bureau to<br>
> find out what day of the year was usually the hottest in DC, and scheduled<br>
> the hearing for that date. His team then went in the night before the<br>
> hearing and opened all the windows in the room in which the hearing was to<br>
> be held, causing the air conditioning to fail to keep up with the heat. All<br>
> so that it could be hot and muggy when James Hansen gave his spiel about the<br>
> dangers of global warming.<br>
> (<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html</a>)<br>
><br>
> The anti-tobacco campaigns, with all their sheer propaganda, do seem to be<br>
> run by political activists, but that may be coincidental.<br>
><br>
> 5. Major climate scientists also appear to have political agendas. Michael<br>
> Mann and his "hockey stick" come to mind, trying to erase the Medieval Warm<br>
> Period and the Little Ice Age, using dubious statistics, all so they could<br>
> show that current warming was "unprecedented". All this from a few<br>
> bristlecone pine trees.<br>
><br>
> I haven't heard of any of these kinds of shenanigans from scientists<br>
> studying the link between tobacco use and lung diseases, probably because<br>
> the links were relatively straight forward. Not so much the case with<br>
> global warming / global climate change / global climate disruption.<br>
><br>
> There are more, but that gives you the gist of it. But hey, it's just me<br>
> being contrarian, right? So please, move along. Nothing to see here.<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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