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      Are you really equating skepticism of global warming with
      believing that the Earth is flat?  I see that Global Warming
      advocacy monies are monies well spent.<br>
      <br>
      I sometimes debate about facts, such as wondering why the number
      of thermometers used to determine the global land temperature
      record fell by so many in 2006.  Mostly, I debate interpretations
      of the facts.  I can't help it if they are sometimes
      interpretations that the global warming scientists and their
      lackeys don't want debated.<br>
      <br>
      Paul<br>
      <br>
      On 07/08/2012 06:10 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1341796228.57620.YahooMailNeo@web121801.mail.ne1.yahoo.com"
      type="cite">
      <div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:tahoma,
        new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Paul,</span></div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Most
            people learn from and debate the significance of the facts.
            We are all qualified and prepared for this. You debate the
            facts and the well <span style="RIGHT: auto"
              id="misspell-0"><span>established</span></span> <span
              style="RIGHT: auto" id="misspell-1"><span>scientific</span></span>
            methods of how facts are <span style="RIGHT: auto"
              id="misspell-2"><span>established</span></span>. </span></div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Two
            people cannot debate the best way to get to the moon when
            one one of them still believes the Earth is flat.<var
              id="yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto"></span> </div>
        <div style="RIGHT: auto"><span style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan J.
            Arnold</span></div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, new york, times, serif;
          FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
          <div style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times,
            serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
            <div style="RIGHT: auto" dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"
                size="2">
                <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Paul
                Rumelhart <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
                <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> Sam
                Scripter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:moscowsam@charter.net"><moscowsam@charter.net></a> <br>
                <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</span></b>
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <br>
                <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b>
                Sunday, July 8, 2012 5:40 PM<br>
                <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b>
                Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public Accuracy: "Media
                Miss the Forest for the Burning Trees"<br>
              </font></div>
            <br>
            <div id="yiv2014080595">
              <div>
                <div class="yiv2014080595moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                  Does "validly express <span id="misspell-5"
                    class="mark">one's</span> positions on the findings
                  of science" equate to "conform to the scientific
                  consensus"?  Is there no room for criticism and
                  debate?<br>
                  <br>
                  Paul<br>
                  <br>
                  On 07/08/2012 11:10 AM, Sam Scripter wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">Good post, Joe!
                  <div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I appreciate the "pains"/time/effort you take
                      to carefully, fully explain your points about how
                      to validly express <span id="misspell-7"
                        class="mark">one's</span> position on the
                      findings of science.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Thank you!</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Sam S</div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -------- Original message --------<br>
                  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public
                  Accuracy: "Media Miss the Forest for the Burning
                  Trees" <br>
                  From: Joe Campbell <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
                    rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
                    ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>
                  <br>
                  To: Paul Rumelhart <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
                    target="_blank"
                    ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com</a>
                  <br>
                  CC: Moscow Vision 2020 <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow"
                    target="_blank"
                    ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020@moscow.com</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <div>Two other points worth making.<br>
                    <br>
                    First, you would come off as something other than a
                    spokesman for a<br>
                    radical, ill-informed, politically motivated
                    position if your<br>
                    criticisms went both ways. You like to point out
                    "flaws" in climate<br>
                    science. But are there no flaws in the arguments of
                    their detractors?<br>
                    No fallacies, no prejudices, no false reports, no
                    political<br>
                    motivations? Doubtful.<br>
                    <br>
                    Second, in your initial post, at the bottom of this
                    one, you list<br>
                    several complaints about the political motivations
                    lurking behind<br>
                    climate science. But this makes it seem as if
                    climate science is<br>
                    somehow separated from the rest of science and the
                    academy and nothing<br>
                    can be further from the truth.<br>
                    <br>
                    At <span id="misspell-9" class="mark">WSU</span>,
                    climate scientists work within the School of Earth
                    and<br>
                    Environmental Sciences (SEES), which is made up of
                    scientists from a<br>
                    multitude of disciplines such as geology,
                    geochemistry, ecology,<br>
                    hydrology, microbiology, and marine biology. Were
                    you to poll these<br>
                    folks -- indeed, were you to poll scientists in
                    general -- you'd find<br>
                    that there is an overwhelming consensus among them
                    about the impact of<br>
                    human behavior on global warming. Thus, if we are to
                    believe your<br>
                    reports of bias among climate scientists, the
                    conspiracy would be more<br>
                    widespread than you suggest, involving not just
                    climate scientists but<br>
                    the entire scientific community, perhaps all of the
                    academy. In the<br>
                    end, we're left with a fairytale conspiracy theory
                    that is<br>
                    preposterous and unbelievable.<br>
                    <br>
                    Just to note one example, you constantly complain
                    about problems with<br>
                    computer models when making large-scale claims about
                    global climate<br>
                    change but did you know that these models are used
                    in other areas of<br>
                    science as well? A quick scan of some of the
                    research interests of<br>
                    members of SEES makes the point. One professor's
                    "research uses<br>
                    computer simulation models to help us understand the
                    recent problems<br>
                    in the electric power industry." Another "combines
                    field measurements<br>
                    with theoretical models and computer simulations to
                    shed light on<br>
                    natural water flows, mixing, and sediment
                    transport." This is research<br>
                    that is funded by competitive national grants and
                    provides information<br>
                    that is actually used to solve real-world problems.
                    Why not<br>
                    investigate whether or not your worries about
                    computer models apply to<br>
                    these areas of research as well? The flip-side is,
                    don't you think<br>
                    that these scientists would all be standing up on
                    their soapboxes<br>
                    deriding the claims of climate scientists if their
                    work were as biased<br>
                    and fallacious as you contend that it is? Don't you
                    think they'd want<br>
                    to separate their research from the disreputable
                    research of climate<br>
                    scientists if that work were as questionable as you
                    contend? Again, if<br>
                    we are to believe any of your claims, the political
                    conspiracy would<br>
                    be very wide, so wide as to involve the whole of the
                    academy.<br>
                    <br>
                    As the Director of the School of Politics,
                    Philosophy, and Public<br>
                    Affairs, I have a keen interest in the connections
                    between science,<br>
                    ethics, and policy: How can we take the information
                    that science<br>
                    provides and apply it to the real world in a way
                    that is beneficial to<br>
                    humanity and the universe in general? Last year we
                    started a series of<br>
                    lectures in an attempt to help the general public
                    better understand<br>
                    complex issues like global warming, bringing
                    together experts from a<br>
                    variety of fields for public forums at least once a
                    semester. Last<br>
                    spring we brought in Andrew Light, a Senior Fellow
                    at the Center for<br>
                    American Progress, and formed a panel discussion
                    with representatives<br>
                    from biochemistry, sociology, and philosophy to
                    provide information on<br>
                    this very topic. After brief presentations from the
                    panelists, there<br>
                    was a Q&A where folks were allowed to ask
                    questions and voice concerns<br>
                    about these matters. I advertised this on Vision
                    2020. This is not the<br>
                    behavior of people who have an agenda that they want
                    to trick you into<br>
                    believing.<br>
                    <br>
                    This year we promise to have more events. I'm in the
                    process of<br>
                    organizing a conference on <span id="misspell-10"
                      class="mark">neurophilosophy</span>, investigating
                    the impact<br>
                    of neuroscience on such areas as ethics and the law,
                    and we're also<br>
                    inviting Allen Buchanan, James B. Duke Professor of
                    Philosophy at Duke<br>
                    University, who will likely give a talk on
                    bioethics. I'll continue to<br>
                    advertise these events on Vision 2020 and I
                    encourage you and others<br>
                    to attend. In general, I encourage you, Paul, to
                    seek out local<br>
                    presentations by climate scientists -- I've helped
                    organize at least 3<br>
                    such events over the last 3 years -- and to ask
                    questions directly to<br>
                    the scientists themselves and see if they might be
                    able to respond to<br>
                    your concerns. In other words, instead of voicing
                    your concerns to a<br>
                    group with no expertise that is unable to evaluate
                    the merits of your<br>
                    claims, take them to the climate scientists
                    themselves and see what<br>
                    they say. And do it in a public venue. That way,
                    folks would be able<br>
                    to here both sides of the issue and make a more
                    informed decision.<br>
                    <br>
                    Best, Joe<br>
                    <br>
                    On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Paul Rumelhart <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
                      target="_blank"
                      ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com</a>
                    wrote:<br>
                    > Can I assume you have credentials in climate
                    science?  Because, otherwise,<br>
                    > you are being hypocritical in calling me out
                    for "degrading" the<br>
                    > conversation because of my lack of the same.<br>
                    ><br>
                    > Perhaps I'm missing some fundamental knowledge
                    of how arguments work.<br>
                    ><br>
                    > Paul<br>
                    ><br>
                    > ________________________________<br>
                    > From: Ted <span id="misspell-12" class="mark">Moffett</span>
                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com" rel="nofollow"
                      target="_blank"
                      ymailto="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">mailto:starbliss@gmail.com</a><br>
                    > To: Joe Campbell <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
                      rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
                      ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
                    > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow"
                      target="_blank"
                      ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
                    > Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 2:03 PM<br>
                    > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Institute for Public
                    Accuracy: "Media Miss the<br>
                    > Forest for the Burning Trees"<br>
                    ><br>
                    > Thanks for these comments phrased in a manner
                    so easy to understand, coming<br>
                    > from someone who could write at a level that
                    would be obtuse for many... I'm<br>
                    > reminded of the writing style of philosopher
                    Bertrand Russell<br>
                    ><br>
                    > When in a dialog someone of a significant level
                    of education and<br>
                    > intelligence repeatedly refuses to admit when
                    it is pointed out that they<br>
                    > have engaged in significant omissions, errors
                    and misrepresentations<br>
                    > regarding a critical scientific field, and
                    promotes what can be easily<br>
                    > determined by most anyone doing cursory
                    research of scientific peer review,<br>
                    > to be junk science, as though we are supposed
                    to take it seriously, this<br>
                    > implies a factual and/or argumentative filter
                    at work, for whatever reason<br>
                    > or reasons.  Call it a indication of an
                    "agenda," or who knows what it is!<br>
                    ><br>
                    > Maybe there is still some social value to such
                    a degraded dialog, but it<br>
                    > ceases to offer significant credible factual or
                    augmentative input of<br>
                    > interest for someone who reaches a certain
                    level of competency in exploring<br>
                    > the scientific field involved.<br>
                    ><br>
                    > On the issue of complexity as an argument for a
                    high degree of skepticism<br>
                    > about the claims of a given field of knowledge,
                    the human brain/mind is<br>
                    > claimed by some to be the most complex object
                    in the known universe,<br>
                    > therefore we should engage in a high degree of
                    skepticism about any claims<br>
                    > by anyone about any ones state of "mind,"
                    whether scientific claims or other<br>
                    > sorts.  It amazes me that people make such
                    simple and easy <span id="misspell-13" class="mark">judgements</span>
                    about<br>
                    > each others state of mind, given that such
                    propositions to be credible<br>
                    > should only be made by those with <span
                      id="misspell-14" class="mark">PhDs</span> in a
                    psychology or perhaps<br>
                    > neurobiology related field, and even these <span
                      id="misspell-15" class="mark">judgements</span> it
                    can be argued are<br>
                    > very open to question, assuming a vast
                    complexity is underpinning each<br>
                    > humans state of mind.<br>
                    ><br>
                    > Consider this dialog with <span
                      id="misspell-16" class="mark">neuroscientist</span>
                    Michael <span id="misspell-17" class="mark">Gazzaniga</span>:<br>
                    ><br>
                    > ALAN <span id="misspell-18" class="mark">ALDA</span>
                    INTERVIEWS MICHAEL <span id="misspell-19"
                      class="mark">GAZZANIGA</span><br>
                    > Featured on "The Man with Two Brains,"<br>
                    > from the SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN FRONTIERS special
                    "Pieces of Mind."<br>
                    ><br>
                    > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-freetext"
                      href="http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm"
                      rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/lhs/science/mos/mind/algazzin.htm</a><br>
                    ><br>
                    > Alan <span id="misspell-20" class="mark">Alda</span>:<br>
                    > I have to say - and from talking to you I think
                    you feel this way, too -<br>
                    > consciousness is a terrific thing to have. It
                    feels good to have<br>
                    > consciousness. When you lose consciousness and
                    when you sense you're going<br>
                    > to lose consciousness, it doesn't feel good.
                    You get a little nervous about<br>
                    > that. But what do you suppose is the reason we
                    have consciousness? Why has<br>
                    > it persisted? What good is it in terms of the
                    survival of the species?<br>
                    > Michael <span id="misspell-21" class="mark">Gazzaniga</span>:<br>
                    > That's related to the $64,000 question. What's
                    it for? If you want to<br>
                    > understand anything, you've got to know what
                    it's for. And it so permeates<br>
                    > every thought we have, you think, well, it's
                    for keeping us motivated, to<br>
                    > have these thoughts, or whatever. But you start
                    to put this stuff down on<br>
                    > paper and it just doesn't look like you're
                    saying much.<br>
                    > You know, there's a bunch of philosophers now
                    who are saying, "A human<br>
                    > trying to understand consciousness is like a
                    nematode trying to understand a<br>
                    > dog." It's just too big a problem, and they
                    kind of toss it out the window.<br>
                    > Well I don't think we should do that. Clearly,
                    it's going to take a lot of<br>
                    > major new thinking to really give us an
                    insight, a handle on how we can<br>
                    > scientifically talk about this phenomenal
                    awareness that we all experience.<br>
                    > -------------------------------------------<br>
                    > Vision2020 Post: Ted <span id="misspell-22"
                      class="mark">Moffett</span><br>
                    ><br>
                    > On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Joe Campbell <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                      href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
                      rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
                      ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
                    > wrote:<br>
                    ><br>
                    >I'm making claims about your arguments and</div>
                  > when it comes to judgments about the strengths
                  and weaknesses of<br>
                  > arguments -- the area of logic and the broader
                  area of epistemology --<br>
                  > there is NO ONE living on the <span
                    id="misspell-23" class="mark">Palouse</span> who is
                  more qualified than I am<br>
                  > (although there are a few people who are as
                  qualified).<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Paul,<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Thanks for helping me to make my case!<br>
                  ><br>
                  > The point is that you DON'T believe that smoking
                  causes lung cancer on<br>
                  > the basis of scientific evidence that you
                  understand and evaluate,<br>
                  > because you are not a scientist. You believe it
                  because it is "common<br>
                  > sense" (which is irrelevant, for it merely boils
                  down to the fact that<br>
                  > it seems to you to be true) and because the
                  experts tell you it is<br>
                  > true. You still haven't shown a difference
                  between the case of smoking<br>
                  > and human carbon consumption. Let's look more
                  closely at some of the<br>
                  > BAD arguments you give below for the supposed
                  difference.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Two clarifications first. My point was that
                  unless you are an actual<br>
                  > scientist, it is almost impossible to make
                  judgments about scientific<br>
                  > claims on evidence alone. In most cases,
                  understanding the evidence<br>
                  > would require a high level of expertise. This is
                  why scientific<br>
                  > beliefs should be based on testimony, the
                  testimony of experts in the<br>
                  > field. My general claim was that there is NO
                  basis to dismiss one set<br>
                  > of scientists (climate scientists, say) yet not
                  dismiss others as<br>
                  > well. In my previous post, I happened to mention
                  scientists who<br>
                  > specialize in lung cancer research but below I
                  mention others since<br>
                  > they are helpful in showing flaws in your
                  reasoning.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Also, you might wonder how I'm qualified to speak
                  about such matters,<br>
                  > given that I'm not a climate scientist either.
                  But I'm not making any<br>
                  > claims about the climate. I just trust what the
                  climate scientists<br>
                  > tell me for reasons given. I'm making claims
                  about your arguments and<br>
                  > when it comes to judgments about the strengths
                  and weaknesses of<br>
                  > arguments -- the area of logic and the broader
                  area of epistemology --<br>
                  > there is NO ONE living on the <span
                    id="misspell-24" class="mark">Palouse</span> who is
                  more qualified than I am<br>
                  > (although there are a few people who are as
                  qualified).<br>
                  ><br>
                  > The points in (1) are irrelevant and were
                  addressed above. In the<br>
                  > 1950s smoking seemed to be a healthy activity and
                  was promoted as<br>
                  > such. Common sense turned out to be wrong. Common
                  sense is never a<br>
                  > reason for holding scientific beliefs.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > <span id="misspell-25" class="mark">Wrt</span>
                  (2), I'd be willing to bet that there are climate
                  scientists<br>
                  > working on these very questions. In any event,
                  I'm not sure what<br>
                  > evidence you have to say otherwise. I tend to
                  leave it to scientists<br>
                  > to determine what kinds of studies they should or
                  shouldn't be<br>
                  > concerned with in order to support their claims.
                  Since you are not a<br>
                  > scientist, these points are meaningless.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > For point (3), it is true that the climate is
                  complex. But the<br>
                  > universe is even MORE complex. To the extent that
                  this gives you a<br>
                  > reason to dismiss climate science it should give
                  you EVEN MORE reason<br>
                  > to dismiss all of physics for both the
                  micro-level of the universe and<br>
                  > the macro-level of the universe are FAR MORE
                  complex than the earth's<br>
                  > climate. This is just a general skeptical
                  argument that applies to<br>
                  > almost ANY area of science. Why accept it <span
                    id="misspell-26" class="mark">wrt</span> climate
                  science but not,<br>
                  > say, cosmology? Why believe anything that Stephen
                  Hawking says, for<br>
                  > instance? Do you know how much MORE complicated
                  the whole <span id="misspell-27" class="mark">frickin</span>'<br>
                  > universe is when compared with the earth's
                  climate? This is an absurd,<br>
                  > BAD, and irresponsible argument.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > I've responded to arguments like those in (4) and
                  (5) before but it<br>
                  > hasn't seemed to sink in yet. Whether or not a
                  scientist has an agenda<br>
                  > is IRRELEVANT. What matters is the EVIDENCE he or
                  she has in support<br>
                  > of the claims made. Suppose you find out that 99%
                  of scientists who<br>
                  > study the links between smoking and lung cancer
                  went into the field<br>
                  > for emotional and irrational reasons -- suppose,
                  say, that members of<br>
                  > their family died of lung cancer. That would be
                  irrelevant and<br>
                  > shouldn't cause you to dismiss their findings.
                  ALL that is relevant is<br>
                  > the epistemological quality of the evidence,
                  which can be judged in<br>
                  > objective ways.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > If your argument were sound, it should give
                  people reason to dismiss<br>
                  > EVERYTHING you say because you clearly have an
                  agenda. You can't tell<br>
                  > me that your concern with the issue of global
                  warming is independent<br>
                  > of your political views or your personal habits,
                  that it is solely<br>
                  > motivated by the desire for objective truth and
                  nothing more. This<br>
                  > very argument undermines everything you say on
                  Vision 2020 since all<br>
                  > of it is in keeping with your own political
                  viewpoints, or "agenda."<br>
                  > But people shouldn't dismiss your views merely
                  because you happen to<br>
                  > be interested in politics. They should judge your
                  views on the basis<br>
                  > of the evidence you provide in support of the
                  claims that you make.<br>
                  > They shouldn't make sweeping generalizations
                  about your claims either;<br>
                  > they should evaluate each argument individually.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > If your argument were sound, we should dismiss
                  ALL sciences related to<br>
                  > human heath, since they are all motivated by the
                  subjective desire to<br>
                  > help human beings extend their lives and improve
                  the quality of their<br>
                  > lives. Likely anyone working in the area of
                  cancer research is<br>
                  > motivated in part by the selfish desire to become
                  THE person that<br>
                  > finds the cure for cancer. That is irrelevant.
                  This is another general<br>
                  > skeptical argument that (if sound) should cause
                  you to dismiss much<br>
                  > more than climate science.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > ALL scientific claims should be judged by the
                  merits of the evidence<br>
                  > given. Personal facts about the scientists are
                  ALWAYS IRRELEVANT.<br>
                  > People tend to choose their vocations for
                  personal reasons, not<br>
                  > because of a desire to seek objective truth.
                  Scientists are no<br>
                  > different in this regard.<br>
                  ><br>
                  > Best, Joe<br>
                  ><br>
                  > On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 7:16 PM, Paul Rumelhart <a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow"
                    target="_blank"
                    ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com</a>
                  wrote:<br>
                  >> On 07/03/2012 05:42 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>
                  >>><br>
                  >>> So, Paul, why believe that smoking causes
                  lung disease if you don't<br>
                  >>> believe that human carbon consumption has
                  an impact on global warming?<br>
                  >>><br>
                  >>> Joe<br>
                  >><br>
                  >><br>
                  >> First, I'm not saying that carbon consumption
                  is not having an impact on<br>
                  >> global warming.  I'm saying that the size of
                  the impacts compared to the<br>
                  >> more-or-less unknown natural factors is
                  unknown and that the <span id="misspell-29"
                    class="mark">feedbacks</span><br>
                  >> from<br>
                  >> warming in general are unknown, among other
                  things.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> There are plenty of reasons, both scientific
                  and not, that make me<br>
                  >> skeptical<br>
                  >> of global warming.  Although everyone will
                  assume I'm just grasping at<br>
                  >> straws because of my deep-seated urge to deny
                  everything (probably has to<br>
                  >> do<br>
                  >> with my relationship with my mother), I
                  humbly present a smattering of<br>
                  >> them<br>
                  >> for your enjoyment:<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> 1.  On the face of it, the idea is
                  extraordinary.  Humans, even with our<br>
                  >> vaunted civilization, are small potatoes
                  compared to the forces of nature.<br>
                  >> The only reason our carbon footprint even
                  makes a dent compared to natural<br>
                  >> forces has to do with the small amount of CO2
                  in our atmosphere.  We've<br>
                  >> had<br>
                  >> far less of an impact on the water cycle, for
                  example, or with oxygen<br>
                  >> levels.  Not saying that it isn't possible,
                  but there is automatically a<br>
                  >> bar<br>
                  >> that has to be gotten over which smoking
                  causing lung disease doesn't<br>
                  >> have.<br>
                  >> It should be common sense that inhaling smoke
                  multiple times a day for<br>
                  >> years<br>
                  >> can have a deleterious effect on the lungs,
                  even without bringing in<br>
                  >> carcinogens.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> 2.  There are some obvious questions that
                  aren't being answered because of<br>
                  >> the focus on human impacts.  For example,
                  what caused the earth to heat up<br>
                  >> immediately following the Little Ice Age?  If
                  we do not know, how can we<br>
                  >> say<br>
                  >> with any confidence that human-induced
                  climate change is to blame instead<br>
                  >> of<br>
                  >> the same natural processes still at work? 
                  What causes an ice age to<br>
                  >> start,<br>
                  >> and what brings us out of one?<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> 3.  The climate is complex, with multiple <span
                    id="misspell-30" class="mark">feedbacks</span> of
                  unknown strength<br>
                  >> and<br>
                  >> unknown <span id="misspell-31" class="mark">feedbacks</span>
                  of unknown strength.  The sign of the combination of<br>
                  >> <span id="misspell-32" class="mark">feedbacks</span>
                  isn't even known.  Climate models cannot be that
                  accurate, given<br>
                  >> the above, yet they are seen as gospel.  Even
                  when they make different<br>
                  >> assumptions and model things different ways. 
                  As long as they project a<br>
                  >> warmer future, they are added to the model
                  average and used as proof that<br>
                  >> global warming will kill babies and cause
                  frogs to rain from the sky.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> I imagine that the mechanisms for lung
                  disease from tobacco are relatively<br>
                  >> straight forward.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> 4.  Some of the major players in the
                  spotlight on the side of global<br>
                  >> warming<br>
                  >> are environmental activists with an agenda,
                  as opposed to being objective<br>
                  >> scientists just following the data.  For
                  example, Timothy <span id="misspell-33" class="mark">Wirth</span>
                  (Senator<br>
                  >> from Colorado and leader of the negotiating
                  team for the Kyoto treaty)<br>
                  >> held<br>
                  >> a hearing on global warming at the capital. 
                  He called the Weather Bureau<br>
                  >> to<br>
                  >> find out what day of the year was usually the
                  hottest in DC, and scheduled<br>
                  >> the hearing for that date.  His team then
                  went in the night before the<br>
                  >> hearing and opened all the windows in the
                  room in which the hearing was to<br>
                  >> be held, causing the air conditioning to fail
                  to keep up with the heat.<br>
                  >> All<br>
                  >> so that it could be hot and muggy when James
                  Hansen gave his spiel about<br>
                  >> the<br>
                  >> dangers of global warming.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html"
                    rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/hotpolitics/interviews/wirth.html</a>)<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> The anti-tobacco campaigns, with all their
                  sheer propaganda, do seem to be<br>
                  >> run by political activists, but that may be
                  coincidental.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> 5.  Major climate scientists also appear to
                  have political agendas.<br>
                  >> Michael<br>
                  >> Mann and his "hockey stick" come to mind,
                  trying to erase the Medieval<br>
                  >> Warm<br>
                  >> Period and the Little Ice Age, using dubious
                  statistics, all so they could<br>
                  >> show that current warming was
                  "unprecedented". All this from a few<br>
                  >> <span id="misspell-34" class="mark">bristlecone</span>
                  pine trees.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> I haven't heard of any of these kinds of
                  shenanigans from scientists<br>
                  >> studying the link between tobacco use and
                  lung diseases, probably because<br>
                  >> the links were relatively straight forward. 
                  Not so much the case with<br>
                  >> global warming / global climate change /
                  global climate disruption.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> There are more, but that gives you the gist
                  of it.  But hey, it's just me<br>
                  >> being <span id="misspell-35" class="mark">contrarian</span>,
                  right? So please, move along.  Nothing to see here.<br>
                  >><br>
                  >> Paul<br>
                  ><br>
                  ><br>
                  ><br>
                  >
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                  <br>
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                  <pre>=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-38" class="mark">Palouse</span> since 1994.
               <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net/</a>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="yiv2014080595moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</pre>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            =======================================================<br>
            List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
            serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-39"
              class="mark">Palouse</span> since 1994.<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net/</a><br>
                      <span id="misspell-40" class="mark">mailto</span>:<a
              moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
              ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
            =======================================================<br>
            <br>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
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