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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Concerning Al-Awlaki: I agree with you 1,000%. Al-Awlaki should have been captured and held for trial by a United Nations tribunal. That would have been the moral thing to do.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Concerning who is/isn’t a militant: That has become the “gray area” of combat operations, since the advent of gorilla-warfare (introduced in the Korea conflict and “amped up” in Vietnam).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Would the US have been considered immoral to bomb a Nazi munitions factory in WW2 if that factory contained Jewish forced labor? That’s a tough one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Was Lt. Calley, and his platoon, immoral for assaulting and killing women and children in the village of My Lai, South Vietnam, after receiving confirmed reports of Viet Cong inhabiting that village? My answer is “Yes”. However, it must be emphasized that not all Viet Cong were males between the ages of 18 and 60. There have been several instances of Viet Cong “suicide bombers”, many were women and children, with bombs strapped to their bodies as they entered US observation posts and compounds, resulting in letters to next-of-kin.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In addition to those “non-military aged” combatants killed as a result of such operations, there are other (just as severe) remnants of “collateral damage”, such as . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bill, good friend of mine that I met while attending North Idaho College (I mentioned this earlier on the Viz), suffered from PTSD. He and I shared more than a couple beers discussing our times in the military. I learned from him what caused his PTSD.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bill was an artilleryman in the Marines in Vietnam. As an artilleryman, his team would receive missions that simply included grid coordinates and the types and levels of shelling to conduct. Many times his team was called on to use white phosphorus shells (extremely incendiary). He never had the “opportunity” to see the results of his team’s shelling up close until . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bill’s team was called on to conduct white phosphorus saturation shelling of a target approximately one square kilometer in size. His team hit the target heavily for, what he felt, was a couple hours. After the fires and smoke had degenerated, Bill and his team were ordered to conduct a recon patrol of the target . . . a village of hootches containing the burned bodies of elderly women and children. It was learned that there were VC in the village, but they had cleared out long before the shelling began.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I haven’t had any contact with Bill in quite a while. I only hope that is at peace with himself.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So, you see, Sunil (and I am paraphrasing here) . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>War NEVER proves who is right, only who is left.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Seeya round town, Moscow.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tom Hansen<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Moscow, Idaho<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sunil Ramalingam<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 30, 2012 6:51 AM<br><b>Cc:</b> vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Beating dead horses<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Tom,<br><br>You are right, it is confusing, primarily because it's poorly written. I was thinking of the Al-Awlaki murder when I wrote the first sentence, and am referring specifically to that killing in my first sentence.<br><br>The second quote goes to the Obama administration's position (or lie) that it's killing militants with its drone campaign; they can make it because of their expansive definition of 'militants.'<br><br>I should be more clear when I write. For clarity's sake, let me say I find both categories of killing disgusting and illegal, and I can't support someone who is doing this.<br><br>Sunil<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>From: <a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Beating dead horses<br>Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 06:31:14 -0700<br>To: <a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sunil -<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>I am puzzled a little, honestly, by your comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Are you addressing "ALL [my emphasis] military age males in a strike zone" or just those that are US citizens (as suggested by your opening sentence)?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>If the former, I will have more to say. If the latter, I kinda (in spirit) agree with you.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Seeya round town, Moscow.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Tom Hansen<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Moscow, Idaho<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>"If not us, who?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>If not now, when?"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>- Unknown<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>On May 30, 2012, at 6:03, Sunil Ramalingam <<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Chuck (or is it Chick?)<br><br>I'm looking for the section in the Constitution that says the President, on his own say so, can kill US citizens, without due process. Where is it?<br><br>Here's Greenwald on this issue, yesterday:<br><br><a href="http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/obama_the_warrior/singleton/" target="_blank">http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/obama_the_warrior/singleton/</a><br><br>Here's something to be proud of: "Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect <strong><span style='font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants</span></strong>, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent." (From this other Greenwald article yesterday: <a href="http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/singleton/">http://www.salon.com/2012/05/29/militants_media_propaganda/singleton/</a> )<br><br>Yep, if we killed them, they must have been militants, unless someone proves otherwise, after they're dead. Of course, when we send drones back to kill rescuers and mourners, it may be hard to prove the innocence of the murder victims. And we should believe the state, because Obama's president, right? If he says it, it must be true? How many Obama supporters took the same position when Bush was president?<br><br>How can we 'eliminate al Quaeda' when every time we blow up people, we help them recruit?<br><br>Sunil<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center id=ecxstopSpelling></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 16:59:39 -0700<br>From: <a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:ckovis@turbonet.com">ckovis@turbonet.com</a><br>CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Beating dead horses<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Mr. Kovis,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>It concerns me that you don't know the difference between an opinion piece and an article strictly written with<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>empirical facts backed by several sources for accuracy. One is subjective, and the other is objective.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>You can post 100s of opinion pieces by anti-war, anti-Obama, or anti-current US policy writers, it doesn't substantiate your claims that Obama is targeting innocent civilians.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>"When he applies his <span class=mark>lawyering</span> skills to <span class=mark>counterterrorism</span>, it is usually to enable, not constrain, his ferocious campaign against Al <span class=mark>Qaeda</span> -</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:red'> even when it comes to killing an American cleric in Yemen, a decision that Mr. Obama told colleagues was "an easy one."</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>This is not the full truth, which makes it a lie. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html" target="_blank"><span style='color:black'>If you read the article which the opinion writer is referring to</span></a>, you would see that Obama has only targeted 15 Yemen with American ties, all plotting an attack on American soil. It doesn't matter if someone is a cleric from <span class=mark>Mukalla</span>, Yemen</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#0066CC'>, </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>or Moscow, Russia, or Moscow, Idaho, if they are plotting to kill Americans in the United States or elsewhere, I say more power to the President to bring a drone plane down on their head.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>It appears to me, you reject any policy the US has of eliminating Al <span class=mark>Qaeda</span>, an organization that plotted, funded, and executed 3,000 American civilians, including children, and would do it again given a chance. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Donovan J. Arnold<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Chuck Kovis <<a href="mailto:ckovis@turbonet.com">ckovis@turbonet.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> Donovan Arnold <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> <br><b>Cc:</b> "<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 29, 2012 4:32 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Beating dead horses</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=ecxyiv916931653><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>From the New York Times via Reader Supported News:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>"In interviews with The New York Times, three dozen of his current and former advisers described Mr. <span class=mark>Obama's</span> evolution since taking on the role, without precedent in presidential history, of personally overseeing the shadow war with Al <span class=mark>Qaeda</span>. They describe a paradoxical leader who shunned the legislative deal-making required to close the detention facility at <span class=mark>Guantánamo</span> Bay in Cuba, but approves lethal action without hand-wringing. While he was adamant about narrowing the fight and improving relations with the Muslim world, he has followed the metastasizing enemy into new and dangerous lands. When he applies his <span class=mark>lawyering</span> skills to <span class=mark>counterterrorism</span>, it is usually to enable, not constrain, his ferocious campaign against Al <span class=mark>Qaeda</span> -</span><span style='color:red'> even when it comes to killing an American cleric in Yemen, a decision that Mr. Obama told colleagues was "an easy one."</span><span style='color:black'> " (My emphasis)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>I opposed Democrat Lyndon Johnson and the Vietnam War. I oppose Democrat Barack Obama and the Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iran Wars. When you have a constitutional law professor saying that it is "an easy one" to kill a fellow U.S. citizen without what passes now days for "due process," don't expect me to go along with it. I find it disgusting that more people in this country don't have the guts to put a stop to this at the ballot box. As a country, we will never learn, when a former <span class=mark>SDS'er</span> is an apologist for a President who says the decision to kill a fellow human being and fellow American citizen is easy. Chuck Kovis<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><br>======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a> =======================================================<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></body></html>