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<br>
I might even join in a peaceful protest of a KKK parade, in an
effort to promote the idea of equality. I would likely try to calm
people down if they were angered by the KKK members, and if the
protest turned into anything but peaceful, I would leave it.<br>
<br>
In answer to your question, of course we have the right to judge
people's views and oppose them if we don't like them. That's what
I'm doing here. My initial post was an effort to show the
"Intoleristas" that they were in fact intolerant. It wasn't an
effort to have them shut down or in any way silenced. The statement
that started this was in one of Nick's posts ("It's not intolerant
to dislkike intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry,
and bad manners.") I stated that what I've seen from the
Intoleristas certainly looks like intolerance to me. Most of the
responses have either been attempts to show me that Doug Wilson is
so bad that being intolerant of him is our civic duty, or a shocked
reaction to the fact that I really don't care what nonsense others
believe. Oh, and a few attempts to tie my lack of caring about
other's personal beliefs with either character flaws, my race,
gender, and economic status, or support for murder, racial violence,
or the Nazi party.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 03/31/2012 10:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:BAY155-W341203721CB39DB28D75C2BD4E0@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
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<div dir="ltr">
Paul,<br>
<br>
If the Klan wants to hold a parade, I defend their right to do
so. I won't try to prevent them from having their parade.<br>
<br>
But I will be there to protest them and their opinions, and will
support the right of others to do the same.<br>
<br>
People have the right to any view they want, as far as I'm
concerned, and I think we agree here. What they don't have is
the right to have us all say, 'That's just dandy.' We have the
right to judge their views, and oppose them if we think they're
wrong. I get the feeling you don't think we have that right. Am
I correct about that?<br>
<br>
Sunil<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700<br>
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br>
<br>
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On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com">1.
Rumelhart writes:<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">"If black teenagers
wearing hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be
suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others
on this list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being
harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more
tolerant of each other."</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0,
153);">
<br>
Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same
amount of tenacity to the following:<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">"If KKK members wearing
hoods were being harassed here in Moscow, I'd be
suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of others
on this list. If Aryan Nations members and other white
supremacists in Moscow were being harassed I'd be
suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of each
other."</span><br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, actually I would. If one group is harassing another
group merely because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be
calling for more tolerance. I'm not saying that would be my
reaction if KKK members were physically harassing non-whites
on the streets, but it would be my reaction if someone just
simply declared that they supported the KKK and they were
getting harassed for it.<br>
<br>
It's really not that difficult of a concept. It's not my
purpose in life to force everyone to think my way.
Individualism and the sanctity of the mind are important
concepts to me. I'm only interested in how we all interact in
the physical plane.<br>
<br>
Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control
device that could be used on people to (among other things)
change their core beliefs, would you recommend we use it on
KKK members?<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com">
<br>
2. Rumelhart also writes:<br>
<br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 153);">"But if one particular
faith is being singled out because of their beliefs and
some bad blood between list members, I'm effectively
shunned if I suggest that we be more tolerant of them."</span><br
style="">
<br>
So now its all about you, Rumelhart. Who would have
guessed? Poor, poor Rumelhart.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that
much about it. I'm just pointing out that a mere request for
tolerance can't be tolerated on this list. I don't know about
you, but I find that ironic.<br>
<br>
Paul (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB8VJX6=tM55jd1fjTbC4FHTHp3Gv3DChaaxrT4mODyhgUwEAA@mail.gmail.com"><br>
<br>
w.<br>
<br>
<div class="ecxgmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24
PM, keely emerinemix <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="ecxgmail_quote" style="padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"> No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of
contention" that the Christ Church people "simply
think that the historical facts of slavery differ
from what's normally understood by historians" --
two of whose criticism of that view caused our
thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their
censure by the Governor and the UI President. <br>
<br>
Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is
in his extension of the freedom of others to
interfere with his mission . . . <br>
<br>
Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and
those words promote ideas that are dangerous to
civil, stable society as you or I know it, and sound
the death knell to anything resembling a
flourishing, just and righteous -- or Christian --
society beyond that. His proud claim to be a
"paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his
followers that Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his
insistence that such slavery was Biblical -- all of
this hints, minimally, at something less than mere
errors of historical understanding. I'm a Bible
student, not a scholar, but I can assure you that
Antebellum slavery was in no way similar to Roman or
earlier Hebraic slaveholding, and it was not at any
point "Biblically defensible." Given that he makes
his living pulling the hermeneutical and political
wool over other Christians' eyes, it damned well
matters.<br>
<br>
It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of
history. I'm probably not the person to go to on
the finer details of the Pelopennesian Wars, for
example, but my errors would be inconsequential and
subject to the derision they deserve if I choose to
spout off on that of which I know nothing, although
if I "see differently" in the service of a dangerous
agenda, much less call that agenda "Christian," I
deserve every bit of condemnation I incur. I won't
call you "evil" for it, but I struggle with how to
tell you how little I care that you and others
consider me "intolerant" for condemning Wilson and
his lackeys (a term I used in speaking to him by
phone three weeks ago, just in case you think I feel
like it's OK to just scurry around Vision 2020
rather than engage courageously with him
personally. Been there, done that, will do it again
any time he's up to it).<br>
<br>
I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the
announcer intones that Columbus came over on the
Mayflower. Such ignorance is funny in reel life,
sad in real life. But I would urge you to really
consider if all "different thinking" on historical,
social, political, and religious matters is benign
and worthy of defense. <br>
<br>
In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of
the worst type -- that which invokes God. Its
spread won't be because I and a few others stayed
silent in its metastasizing. <br>
<br>
<font color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size: 12pt;"
size="3"><font face="Verdana">Keely<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com"
target="_blank">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br>
</font></font></font><br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a><br>
CC: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br>
<br>
<br>
If members of Christ Church were going around
enslaving people, you might have a point. As
it is, they simply think that the historical
facts of slavery differ from what's normally
understood by historians. I'm not comfortable
ostracizing a group merely because of what
they think about something. That seems to be
the main point of contention, here. <br>
<br>
There is a huge difference between murdering a
person based solely on their race or culture,
and thinking, well, whatever it is that the
Christ Churchers think exactly about slavery
in the Old South. Or, more simply, between
murdering anyone for any reason and thinking
thoughts others find offensive.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
<blockquote>
<div>
<div><span>Paul,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>You are right that everyone
needs to work on caring and accepting
their neighbors for the people that
they are. However, it should concern
you that some people do not <span><span>acknowledge</span></span>
the human <span><span>atrocities</span></span>
that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
with the slavery of a race not that
long ago. A race that even today feels
and <span><span>sufferers</span></span>
the <span><span>consequences</span></span>
of those events. It is in effect
racist to not <span><span>acknowledge</span></span>
the human suffering and violations
that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
to a race of people. If we can ignore
or <span><span>deceive</span></span>
others into ignoring one of the
greatest human rights violations in
the United States, than we can easily
ignore all other human rights
violations. Which, in effect, puts all
humans, including yourself and
everyone you care about at risk. Where
one person's rights are ignored and
violated, <span><span>everyone <span>else</span></span></span> can
be violated as well. That should
concern you. It is not the practice or
belief in a religion that people
object to, but rather the practice of
racist preaching that the violation of
human rights that <span><span>occurred</span></span>
to Blacks in the United States really
didn't happen that people are
objecting to. </span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>Donovan Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:
arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:
10pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new
roman,new
york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial"> <b><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b>
Paul Rumelhart <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">To:</span></b> Saundra
Lund <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm"><v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm></a>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Cc:</span></b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re:
[Vision2020] "We are the answer"<br>
</font></div>
<br>
<br>
If black teenagers wearing hoods were
being harassed here in Moscow, I'd <br>
be suggesting that we should all be
more tolerant of others on this <br>
list. If Muslim women in Moscow were
being harassed I'd be suggesting <br>
that we should all be more tolerant of
each other. But if one <br>
particular faith is being singled out
because of their beliefs and some <br>
bad blood between list members, I'm
effectively shunned if I suggest <br>
that we be more tolerant of them.<br>
<br>
What a world.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund
wrote:<br>
> Visionaries:<br>
><br>
> I know not all here would agree
-- some choose to focus on the
"intolerance"<br>
> of so-called <span>Intoleristas</span>
rather than on the public intolerance
of bigoted<br>
> groups that galvanized some of us
to pull our complacent heads from the
sand<br>
> -- but this eloquently and
accurately reflects my thoughts:<br>
> "We must be active architects of
a better country and a better world.<br>
> Silence in the face of bigotry
and discrimination is agreement and
consent.<br>
> We must challenge every instance
of inequality, no matter how small it
is.<br>
> While overcoming our history's
dark side is not pleasant, it is
something we<br>
> must actively do every day."<br>
><br>
> Here's the full letter that was
published in today's Moscow-Pullman
Daily<br>
> News:<br>
><br>
> Letter to the Editor<br>
> We are the answer<br>
> Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012
1:00 am | Updated: 8:22 am, Fri Mar
30, 2012.<br>
><br>
> My heart is deeply grieved by the
recent news that <span>Shaima</span>
<span>Alawadi</span>, an Iraqi<br>
> mother of five living in
California was beaten to death by a
tire iron.<br>
> Found on her body was a note that
said, "Go back to your own country.
You're<br>
> a terrorist." This incident shows
the long-reaching effects the
political<br>
> rhetoric and rancor of the past
10 years has had on the American
psyche. A<br>
> spark of anger and hatred spurred
by our popular culture and political<br>
> leaders has turned into a fire
within the fringe of our country.<br>
><br>
> Gay youth are committing suicide
due to relentless intimidation and<br>
> harassment. <span>Travyon</span>
Martin was gunned down for what some
call "wearing a<br>
> hood while black." And the murder
of <span>Alawadi</span>. All point to
a startling<br>
> problem. There is a dark side of
American culture. While it's
underground,<br>
> it's still there. A deep seated
resentment of other races, of people
unlike<br>
> us, lies in the hearts of many.
This dark side exists everywhere. I
cannot<br>
> count how many times I have heard
racial, homophobic and sexist slurs at<br>
> sporting events, social
gatherings, even in the work place and
classes. This<br>
> isn't just a problem isolated to
my community, but it is ingrained
within<br>
> the very fabric of our society.<br>
><br>
> It would be easy for us to give
up hope, hope of a better tomorrow, a<br>
> tomorrow without wrathful hatred
and reckless violence. But we cannot.
We<br>
> are the answer to the problem. We
must be active architects of a better<br>
> country and a better world.
Silence in the face of bigotry and<br>
> discrimination is agreement and
consent. We must challenge every
instance of<br>
> inequality, no matter how small
it is. While overcoming our history's
dark<br>
> side is not pleasant, it is
something we must actively do every
day.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Derrick <span>Skaug</span><br>
> <span>ASWSU</span>
Vice-President Elect<br>
> Pullman<br>
><br>
> __________<br>
><br>
> Indeed.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Saundra Lund<br>
> Moscow, ID<br>
><br>
> The only thing necessary for the
triumph of evil is for good people to
do<br>
> nothing.<br>
> ~ Edmund Burke<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
=======================================================<br>
> List services made available by
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since 1994.<br>
> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net"
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> <span>mailto</span>:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>
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><br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <br>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
<pre><fieldset class="ecxmimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
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<pre wrap="">
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