As usual you fail to answer the salient points others raise. Instead of addressing the issues, you merely reassert you original position in different terms. You have learned well from the Cultmaster about how to avoid facing questions you cannot answer.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<br>
Sure, there's plenty of room for those on both sides of this divide
to work on bridging that gap. No question about it. Is one
person's intolerance adequate reason to be intolerant yourself? I
don't think so, but I seem to be alone in this.<br>
<br>
Every Christian religion out there believes that people that don't
accept Christ's sacrifice will endure an eternity of hell. Whether
that involves endless physical torture or simply being without God
for eternity, it's a pretty bleak scenario. Yet I urge
non-believers to be tolerant of Christians, even if they believe
these things. You see where I'm going with this? I simply don't
care what outrageous (in my opinion) things a person believes. <br>
<br>
I agree that Doug could find a nicer way of expressing his beliefs
at times. As I say, there is room for more tolerance on both sides.<br>
<br>
I disagree that it's impossible to work together, though. My best
friend since Junior High (30+ years) is a member of the extended
Christ Church family. We have discussed everything under the sun
throughout that time. We have to be careful to agree to disagree on
a number of topics, but there is a surprising amount of topics that
we can converse on productively. This often includes many of the
big-name items that cause so much strife on this list. When you
actually converse with someone from Christ Church on these topics,
you can often-times see where they are coming from. You might not
agree, but you can see where they are coming from based on their
specific world view. Still, even though we disagree on a lot, my
friend and I still help each other out when they need it, we still
give each other a shoulder to cry on, and we still celebrate the
good things in life. Just like friends everywhere do.<br>
<br>
I just hate seeing such a big rift in the community that I have
lived most of my life in.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Paul</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 03/25/2012 09:08 AM, keely emerinemix wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
Paul, do you really think -- do you really have any evidence
that would lead you to conclude -- that Doug Wilson is
interested in having people "working with them (his followers)
in a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that
everyone can live with?" <br>
<br>
Really? Why would you presume, from the evidence, that Wilson
gives a good rip about "remaking Moscow into someplace that
everyone can live with"? It's kind of not like that.<br>
<br>
Let's see. He's written a book about how to use "Christian"
sarcasm and belligerence to engage with nonbelieves. He has
spurned efforts to join local pastors in inter-faith movement
activities that could "remake Moscow." He has a book out now,
"Evangellyfish," that's a satire against the "soul-winning" type
of modern churches, both emergent and traditional, that have
vexed him for years -- and that constitute the majority of
Moscow's Protestant churches. He is a hyper-Calvinist who
believes that God, for God's own "good pleasure," has purposely
created some people for the sole purpose of eternal damnation.
He thinks it would be an act of judicious mercy to simply exile,
rather than stone or burn, homosexuals in his post-millennial,
patriarchal "Christian" era -- the one his theology assures is
coming and will be lead by male property owners who are heads of
household. Women can't vote in church matters at Christ Church
if, as is virtually always the case, they have a believing,
attending husband. He thinks slavery was an affectionate,
secure relationship between Black kidnap victims and the loving,
patriarchal Christian masters who bought them. He decries
democracy and has acknowledged that it's very likely that he and
his congregants have prayed for the destruction of public
schools. He's certain that he's taught them to pray harm against
their enemies, and defends his "Biblical" right to do it. He's
called "Occupy" protesters horseflies and pustules and equated
women's ordination with some sort of asexual marine biology.<br>
<br>
He's even said "liberal women are ugly," because, as he asserts,
they're "unloved," presumably by the homo-loving, feminized,
pomosexual sentimentalist men they married. That's kind of
sweet way to extend a hand, isn't it?<br>
<br>
Yes, it would be "a much more positive approach," as you say, if
we could all work together. But "working with" Wilson is a
little like two people meeting in the Dallas airport. One's got
a ticket to L.A. and the other is heading to New York -- and
damned if they can't figure out how to travel together.<br>
<br>
That's the way it is, Paul, whether you choose to see it or
not. It really is that simple.<br>
<br>
<font color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font face="Verdana">Keely<br>
<a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com" target="_blank">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br>
</font></font></font><br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 23:28:57 -0700<br>
From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .<br>
<br>
On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In part,
Paul wrote:</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">“</span>For
example, a few years ago people on this list were
suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ
Church members because of some conflict people on this
list had with Doug.”<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">What a
selective memory you have, Paul!!! Actually, what
started the whole boycott thing was Christ Church
members boycotting local businesses with which they
disagreed. That went on for <b>years</b> before
there was any discussion of <b>personal</b>
conscientious spending decisions by some as opposed to
the <b>organized</b> boycotts by Christ Church. And,
that history was rehashed for you – you participated
in it – so you’re not ignorant of the background.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church
listserv on which people were discussing the boycott of
non-Christ Church businesses, I would have argued against it.
Perhaps I would have asked for more tolerance there, as well.
Who knows? As it is, I'm not talking to them. I'm talking to
you.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Funny
that you only remember – and repeat – part of the
story that fits into your stereotyping while ignoring
the cause. Why is that, Paul?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">And, you
dislike the “Intolerista” thing. Take it up with
Christ Church since they are the ones who decided to
make up the word & apply it to any who challenged
them. And, they are the ones who still apply the
label to anyone who disagrees with them. They sell
lectures about it and write articles about it and
preach about it and talk about it at their silly
conferences here and elsewhere and their supporters
have it all over their blogs. It’s a regular part of
their vocabulary used as a pejorative to describe
people who challenge their deep-seated desire for and
stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of
honor, and you're surprised they refer to you by that name? <br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Finally,
I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll give it yet
another try for you simply because it offends me that
you continue to not be honest. The objection to
Christ Church <b>isn’t</b> that they choose to
worship & believe a theological distortion with
which we disagree – there are more than a couple of
local churches that fit into that category.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Rather,
it’s that they advocate for a theocracy in which the
law will force all of us to behave in the ways they
want and punish those who don’t and deny opportunities
to others. They want the benefits of being considered
a church without following the rules required for the
benefits they demand and abuse. “Live & let live”
isn’t something they accept. They relish being
divisive and waging a culture war <b>against</b>
those of us who don’t share their beliefs. They are
intolerant.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake
the laws to match how they think the world should work.
Especially religious organizations, since many of them have
the added constraint that they think the Creator of Everything
is commanding them to do so. I refuse to believe that the
members of Christ Church are in any way unique in this. What
do you think it means to be tolerant of something, anyway? If
you are only tolerant of views that you support, then you
aren't really being tolerant at all.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It really
is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t understand why
you refuse to accept that’s the case for many/the
majority of us who have been labeled “Intoleristas” by
the Kirk. Further, it’s offensive that you continue
to reject explanations contrary your preferred
stereotyping that you’ve been given time and time
again and instead repeatedly trot out the trite
attacks you know aren’t honest. It’s like you refuse
to listen to those you attack because it’s doesn’t fit
into the picture you want to have. IOW, you have a
real bias against those of us who aren’t interested in
a theocracy, truly believe in <b>and are willing to
fight for</b> our constitutional guarantee of
freedom of – and from – religion.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious
rule, as if they are an invading force from another reality
trying to subjugate Moscow by force of arms, why not try
working with them in a joint effort to try to remake Moscow
into someplace that everyone can live with? Wouldn't that be
a much more positive approach? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">If you
consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Saundra</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Moscow,
ID</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The only
thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">~ Edmund
Burke</span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:medium none;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
[<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Rumelhart<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nicholas Gier<br>
<b>Cc:</b> vision2020<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps
. . .</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><br>
You know what? It actually is intolerance. The Christ
Church leadership may not be stellar citizens according
to your criteria, but I see so much ridicule and hatred
directed at them on this list that I fail to see it as
anything other than intolerance. For example, a few
years ago people on this list were suggesting that we
boycott any business run by Christ Church members
because of some conflict people on this list had with
Doug. I don't even remember what it was. A tolerant
community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or
not they thought their leadership were screw-ups.<br>
<br>
This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way.
It's just something that has bothered me as a long-time
Vision2020 subscriber. I'm saying this in response to
your post because I find you to be one of the more
rational people on this list. Myself, I hope they
manage to build the cathedral of their dreams, whatever
that might be. The same goes for any other religious
group out there. More power to them.<br>
<br>
I just think that a more welcoming approach might be
worth a try someday. Every single Christ Church member
that I have spent more than a few minutes interacting
with has turned out to be a nice, helpful person. More
so than your average person, even. <br>
<br>
I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them
because I happen to know a few members of their church.
If this was a Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of
whatever variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any
other minority religious group, I'd be suggesting the
same thing. Welcome them to the community because they
are people like we all are. It doesn't have to be any
more complicated than that. <br>
<br>
I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain
about whatever it is they think Doug has been up to
last, I just think that the "Intolerista" thing should
be tossed out the window, as should the "not on the
Palouse, not ever" idea. If it were a group
distinguished because of gender, race, or sexual
preference and people were being proud of their
intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this
list to be rightly offended. I don't know why people
intolerant of a religious tradition are being given a
pass.<br>
<br>
Anyway, rant over. I'll go prepare myself for the
veritable shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: </p>
<p>Hail to the Vision! </p>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I once had an image file of an
archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's Kirk.
(Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the
churches of racist Dutch Calvinists?) It looked like
a medieval cathedral and would take up the entire
property. They foolishly assumed that they could use
Gritman's parking lots, but permission was wisely
refused. Their real estate agent tried to buy the
large vacant piece to the southwest and Gritman
refused to sell that as well.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>It's not intolerant to dislkike
intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry,
and bad manners.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p>I therefore sign myself a proud
Intolerista,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt">Nick </p>
<div>
<p>On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16
AM, Bradford Cranmer <<a href="mailto:bradford.cranmer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bradford.cranmer@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p style="margin-bottom:12pt">The
name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally
Phantom Cathedral.</p>
<div>
<p>On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08
AM, Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p><br>
<br>
Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>
<br>
Tom Hansen<br>
Moscow, Idaho<br>
<br>
"If not us, who?<br>
If not now, when?"<br>
<br>
- Unknown<br>
<br>
<br>
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<p> </p>
</div>
<pre> </pre>
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</blockquote>
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