As usual you fail to answer the salient points others raise.  Instead of addressing the issues, you merely reassert you original position in different terms.  You have learned well from the Cultmaster about how to avoid facing questions you cannot answer.<br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:54 AM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>

  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    <br>
    Sure, there's plenty of room for those on both sides of this divide
    to work on bridging that gap.  No question about it.  Is one
    person's intolerance adequate reason to be intolerant yourself?  I
    don't think so, but I seem to be alone in this.<br>
    <br>
    Every Christian religion out there believes that people that don't
    accept Christ's sacrifice will endure an eternity of hell.  Whether
    that involves endless physical torture or simply being without God
    for eternity, it's a pretty bleak scenario.  Yet I urge
    non-believers to be tolerant of Christians, even if they believe
    these things.  You see where I'm going with this?  I simply don't
    care what outrageous (in my opinion) things a person believes.  <br>
    <br>
    I agree that Doug could find a nicer way of expressing his beliefs
    at times.  As I say, there is room for more tolerance on both sides.<br>
    <br>
    I disagree that it's impossible to work together, though.  My best
    friend since Junior High (30+ years) is a member of the extended
    Christ Church family.  We have discussed everything under the sun
    throughout that time.  We have to be careful to agree to disagree on
    a number of topics, but there is a surprising amount of topics that
    we can converse on productively.  This often includes many of the
    big-name items that cause so much strife on this list.  When you
    actually converse with someone from Christ Church on these topics,
    you can often-times see where they are coming from.  You might not
    agree, but you can see where they are coming from based on their
    specific world view.  Still, even though we disagree on a lot, my
    friend and I still help each other out when they need it, we still
    give each other a shoulder to cry on, and we still celebrate the
    good things in life.  Just like friends everywhere do.<br>
    <br>
    I just hate seeing such a big rift in the community that I have
    lived most of my life in.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
    <br>
    Paul</font></span><div><div class="h5"><br>
    <br>
    On 03/25/2012 09:08 AM, keely emerinemix wrote:
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        Paul, do you really think -- do you really have any evidence
        that would lead you to conclude -- that Doug Wilson is
        interested in having people "working with them (his followers)
        in a joint effort to try to remake Moscow into someplace that
        everyone can live with?"  <br>
        <br>
        Really?  Why would you presume, from the evidence, that Wilson
        gives a good rip about "remaking Moscow into someplace that
        everyone can live with"?  It's kind of not like that.<br>
        <br>
        Let's see.  He's written a book about how to use "Christian"
        sarcasm and belligerence to engage with nonbelieves.  He has
        spurned efforts to join local pastors in inter-faith movement
        activities that could "remake Moscow."  He has a book out now,
        "Evangellyfish," that's a satire against the "soul-winning" type
        of modern churches, both emergent and traditional, that have
        vexed him for years -- and that constitute the majority of
        Moscow's Protestant churches.  He is a hyper-Calvinist who
        believes that God, for God's own "good pleasure," has purposely
        created some people for the sole purpose of eternal damnation. 
        He thinks it would be an act of judicious mercy to simply exile,
        rather than stone or burn, homosexuals in his post-millennial,
        patriarchal "Christian" era -- the one his theology assures is
        coming and will be lead by male property owners who are heads of
        household.  Women can't vote in church matters at Christ Church
        if, as is virtually always the case, they have a believing,
        attending husband.   He thinks slavery was an affectionate,
        secure relationship between Black kidnap victims and the loving,
        patriarchal Christian masters who bought them. He decries
        democracy and has acknowledged that it's very likely that he and
        his congregants have prayed for the destruction of public
        schools. He's certain that he's taught them to pray harm against
        their enemies, and defends his "Biblical" right to do it.  He's
        called "Occupy" protesters horseflies and pustules and equated
        women's ordination with some sort of asexual marine biology.<br>
        <br>
        He's even said "liberal women are ugly," because, as he asserts,
        they're "unloved," presumably by the homo-loving, feminized,
        pomosexual sentimentalist men they married.  That's kind of
        sweet way to extend a hand, isn't it?<br>
        <br>
        Yes, it would be "a much more positive approach," as you say, if
        we could all work together.  But "working with" Wilson is a
        little like two people meeting in the Dallas airport.  One's got
        a ticket to L.A. and the other is heading to New York -- and
        damned if they can't figure out how to travel together.<br>
        <br>
        That's the way it is, Paul, whether you choose to see it or
        not.  It really is that simple.<br>
        <br>
        <font color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font face="Verdana">Keely<br>
              <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com" target="_blank">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br>
            </font></font></font><br>
        <br>
        <div>
          <hr>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 23:28:57 -0700<br>
          From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
          To: <a href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm" target="_blank">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</a><br>
          CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
          Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps . . .<br>
          <br>
          
          
          
          On 03/24/2012 10:31 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
          <blockquote>
            
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">In part,
                  Paul wrote:</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">“</span>For
                example, a few years ago people on this list were
                suggesting that we boycott any business run by Christ
                Church members because of some conflict people on this
                list had with Doug.”<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">What a
                  selective memory you have, Paul!!!  Actually, what
                  started the whole boycott thing was Christ Church
                  members boycotting local businesses with which they
                  disagreed.  That went on for <b>years</b> before
                  there was any discussion of <b>personal</b>
                  conscientious spending decisions by some as opposed to
                  the <b>organized</b> boycotts by Christ Church.  And,
                  that history was rehashed for you – you participated
                  in it – so you’re not ignorant of the background.</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          Well, if I had happened to have been on a public Christ Church
          listserv on which people were discussing the boycott of
          non-Christ Church businesses, I would have argued against it. 
          Perhaps I would have asked for more tolerance there, as well. 
          Who knows?  As it is, I'm not talking to them.  I'm talking to
          you.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Funny
                  that you only remember – and repeat – part of the
                  story that fits into your stereotyping while ignoring
                  the cause.  Why is that, Paul?</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          I suspect it's alien mind-control rays.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">And, you
                  dislike the “Intolerista” thing.  Take it up with
                  Christ Church since they are the ones who decided to
                  make up the word & apply it to any who challenged
                  them.  And, they are the ones who still apply the
                  label to anyone who disagrees with them.  They sell
                  lectures about it and write articles about it and
                  preach about it and talk about it at their silly
                  conferences here and elsewhere and their supporters
                  have it all over their blogs.  It’s a regular part of
                  their vocabulary used as a pejorative to describe
                  people who challenge their deep-seated desire for and
                  stealth attempts at theocracy, pure and simple.</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          They coined the term, you all chose to use it as a badge of
          honor, and you're surprised they refer to you by that name?  <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Finally,
                  I’m weary of repeating it, but we’ll give it yet
                  another try for you simply because it offends me that
                  you continue to not be honest.  The objection to
                  Christ Church <b>isn’t</b> that they choose to
                  worship & believe a theological distortion with
                  which we disagree – there are more than a couple of
                  local churches that fit into that category.</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Rather,
                  it’s that they advocate for a theocracy in which the
                  law will force all of us to behave in the ways they
                  want and punish those who don’t and deny opportunities
                  to others.  They want the benefits of being considered
                  a church without following the rules required for the
                  benefits they demand and abuse.  “Live & let live”
                  isn’t something they accept.  They relish being
                  divisive and waging a culture war <b>against</b>
                  those of us who don’t share their beliefs.  They are
                  intolerant.</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          I'm sure that almost every organization would want to remake
          the laws to match how they think the world should work. 
          Especially religious organizations, since many of them have
          the added constraint that they think the Creator of Everything
          is commanding them to do so.  I refuse to believe that the
          members of Christ Church are in any way unique in this.  What
          do you think it means to be tolerant of something, anyway?  If
          you are only tolerant of views that you support, then you
          aren't really being tolerant at all.<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">It really
                  is that simple, Paul, and I truly don’t understand why
                  you refuse to accept that’s the case for many/the
                  majority of us who have been labeled “Intoleristas” by
                  the Kirk.  Further, it’s offensive that you continue
                  to reject explanations contrary your preferred
                  stereotyping that you’ve been given time and time
                  again and instead repeatedly trot out the trite
                  attacks you know aren’t honest.  It’s like you refuse
                  to listen to those you attack because it’s doesn’t fit
                  into the picture you want to have.  IOW, you have a
                  real bias against those of us who aren’t interested in
                  a theocracy, truly believe in <b>and are willing to
                    fight for</b> our constitutional guarantee of
                  freedom of – and from – religion.</span></p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          Instead of fighting for your freedom from their religious
          rule, as if they are an invading force from another reality
          trying to subjugate Moscow by force of arms, why not try
          working with them in a joint effort to try to remake Moscow
          into someplace that everyone can live with?  Wouldn't that be
          a much more positive approach?  <br>
          <br>
          Paul<br>
          <br>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">If you
                  consider that a “sh*tstorm,” so be it.</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Saundra</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Moscow,
                  ID</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">The only
                  thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
                  people to do nothing.</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">~ Edmund
                  Burke</span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
              <div>
                <div style="border-right:medium none;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
                  <p><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>
                      [<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Rumelhart<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, March 24, 2012 8:29 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Nicholas Gier<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> vision2020<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Question, V-Peeps
                      . . .</span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p> </p>
              <p><br>
                You know what?  It actually is intolerance.  The Christ
                Church leadership may not be stellar citizens according
                to your criteria, but I see so much ridicule and hatred
                directed at them on this list that I fail to see it as
                anything other than intolerance.  For example, a few
                years ago people on this list were suggesting that we
                boycott any business run by Christ Church members
                because of some conflict people on this list had with
                Doug.  I don't even remember what it was.  A tolerant
                community would welcome people of all faiths, whether or
                not they thought their leadership were screw-ups.<br>
                <br>
                This isn't directed at you, personally, by the way. 
                It's just something that has bothered me as a long-time
                Vision2020 subscriber.  I'm saying this in response to
                your post because I find you to be one of the more
                rational people on this list.  Myself, I hope they
                manage to build the cathedral of their dreams, whatever
                that might be.  The same goes for any other religious
                group out there.  More power to them.<br>
                <br>
                I just think that a more welcoming approach might be
                worth a try someday.  Every single Christ Church member
                that I have spent more than a few minutes interacting
                with has turned out to be a nice, helpful person.  More
                so than your average person, even.  <br>
                <br>
                I'm not just suggesting that we be more tolerant of them
                because I happen to know a few members of their church. 
                If this was a Muslim group, witches, Satanists (of
                whatever variety), atheists, Scientologists, or any
                other minority religious group, I'd be suggesting the
                same thing.  Welcome them to the community because they
                are people like we all are.  It doesn't have to be any
                more complicated than that.  <br>
                <br>
                I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't complain
                about whatever it is they think Doug has been up to
                last, I just think that the "Intolerista" thing should
                be tossed out the window, as should the "not on the
                Palouse, not ever" idea.  If it were a group
                distinguished because of gender, race, or sexual
                preference and people were being proud of their
                intolerance to them, I would expect everyone on this
                list to be rightly offended.  I don't know why people
                intolerant of a religious tradition are being given a
                pass.<br>
                <br>
                Anyway, rant over.  I'll go prepare myself for the
                veritable shitstorm that I suspect is on it's way.<br>
                <br>
                Paul<br>
                <br>
                On 03/24/2012 01:54 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote: </p>
              <p>Hail to the Vision! </p>
              <div>
                <p> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p>I once had an image file of an
                  archictect's general plan for the the Kirk's Kirk.
                  (Did Wilson know that "kirk" is Afrikaans for the
                  churches of racist Dutch Calvinists?)  It looked like
                  a medieval cathedral and would take up the entire
                  property.  They foolishly assumed that they could use
                  Gritman's parking lots, but permission was wisely
                  refused.  Their real estate agent tried to buy the
                  large vacant piece to the southwest and Gritman
                  refused to sell that as well.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p>It's not intolerant to dislkike
                  intellectual dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry,
                  and bad manners.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p>I therefore sign myself a proud
                  Intolerista,</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p style="margin-bottom:12pt">Nick </p>
                <div>
                  <p>On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:16
                    AM, Bradford Cranmer <<a href="mailto:bradford.cranmer@gmail.com" target="_blank">bradford.cranmer@gmail.com</a>>

                    wrote:</p>
                  <p style="margin-bottom:12pt">The
                    name of that lot is The Christ Church Eternally
                    Phantom Cathedral.</p>
                  <div>
                    <p>On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:08
                      AM, Tom Hansen <<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" target="_blank">thansen@moscow.com</a>>

                      wrote:</p>
                    <p><br>
                      <br>
                      Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>
                      <br>
                      Tom Hansen<br>
                      Moscow, Idaho<br>
                      <br>
                      "If not us, who?<br>
                      If not now, when?"<br>
                      <br>
                      - Unknown<br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <br>
=======================================================<br>
                       List services made available by First Step
                      Internet,<br>
                       serving the communities of the Palouse since
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                               mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
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                  </div>
                  <p><br>
                    <br>
=======================================================<br>
                     List services made available by First Step
                    Internet,<br>
                     serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
                                  <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
                             mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================</p>
                </div>
                <p> </p>
              </div>
              <pre> </pre>
              <pre> </pre>
              <pre>=======================================================</pre>
              <pre> List services made available by First Step Internet,</pre>
              <pre> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</pre>
              <pre>               <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a></pre>
              <pre>          <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></pre>
              <pre>=======================================================</pre>
              <p> </p>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          <br>
          ======================================================= List
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          communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>
          <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
          =======================================================</div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </div></div></div>

<br>=======================================================<br>
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          mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>