<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Nor can we follow the <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">defining</SPAN></SPAN> of the Christian as to a human. If the sperm of a man and an egg of a woman joining is what makes a person, than Jesus by <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">definition</SPAN></SPAN> was never a person as He was not <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-1><SPAN>conceived</SPAN></SPAN> by a man. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">If every egg and sperm joined was a person, than we would be morally obligated to do all that was possible to save every fertilized egg. An impossible task. And if accomplished, an impossible world to live in. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan Arnold</SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Art Deco <art.deco.studios@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> vision2020@moscow.com <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, March 21, 2012 3:29 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Vision2020] Fwd: Christians and abortion: The Other View<BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" class=yiv806182499gmail_quote>---------- Forwarded message ----------<BR>From: <B class=yiv806182499gmail_sendername>Art Deco</B> <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A>></SPAN><BR>Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:29 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christians and abortion: The Other View<BR>To: Nicholas <SPAN id=misspell-0 class=mark>Gier</SPAN> <<A href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</A>><BR><BR><BR>What the Bible <SPAN id=misspell-1 class=mark>inerrantists</SPAN>, who use the Bible to oppose abortion, hypocritically fail to mention is that the Bible recommends using a technique to induce abortion as a test when a husband thinks a wife is carrying another man's child.<BR><BR>w.<BR>____________________________<BR>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Numbers 5:11</SPAN></B><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"> – 5:22</SPAN></B></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Young's Literal Translation of the Bible</SPAN></I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">11<SPAN> </SPAN>And Jehovah <SPAN id=misspell-2 class=mark>speaketh</SPAN> unto Moses, saying,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">12<SPAN> </SPAN>‘Speak unto the sons of Israel, and thou hast said unto them, When any man’s wife <SPAN id=misspell-3 class=mark>turneth</SPAN> aside, and hath committed against him a trespass,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">13<SPAN> </SPAN>and a man hath lain with her with the seed of copulation, and it hath been hid from the eyes of her husband, and concealed, and she hath been defiled, and there is no witness against her, and she hath not been caught,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">14<SPAN> </SPAN>and a spirit of jealousy hath passed over him, and he hath been jealous of his wife, and she hath been defiled;—or, a spirit of jealousy hath passed over him, and he hath been jealous of his wife, and she hath not been defiled—</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">15<SPAN> </SPAN>‘Then hath the man brought in his wife unto the priest, and he hath brought in her offering for her, a tenth of the <SPAN id=misspell-4 class=mark>ephah</SPAN> of barley meal, he doth not pour on it oil, nor doth he put on it frankincense, for it is a present of jealousy, a present of memorial, causing remembrance of iniquity.</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">16<SPAN> </SPAN>And the priest hath brought her near, and hath caused her to stand before Jehovah,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">17<SPAN> </SPAN>and the priest hath taken holy water in an earthen vessel, and of the dust which is on the floor of the tabernacle doth the priest take, and hath put it into the water,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">18<SPAN> </SPAN>and the priest hath caused the woman to stand before Jehovah, and hath uncovered the woman’s head, and hath given into her hands the present of the memorial, it is a present of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest are the bitter waters which cause the curse.</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">19<SPAN> </SPAN>‘And the priest hath caused her to swear, and hath said unto the woman, If no man hath lain with thee, and if thou hast not turned aside to uncleanness under thy husband, be free from these bitter waters which cause the curse;</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">20<SPAN> </SPAN>and thou, if thou hast turned aside under thy husband, and if thou hast been defiled, and any man doth give his copulation to thee besides thy husband—</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">21<SPAN> </SPAN>(then the priest hath caused the woman to swear with an oath of execration, and the priest hath said to the woman)—Jehovah doth give thee for an execration, and for a curse, in the midst of thy people, in Jehovah’s giving thy thigh to fall, and thy belly to swell,</SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">22<SPAN> </SPAN>and these waters which cause the curse have gone into thy bowels, to cause the belly to swell, and the thigh to fall; and the woman hath said, Amen, Amen.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN></div><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" class=yiv806182499gmail_quote>On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Nicholas <SPAN id=misspell-5 class=mark>Gier</SPAN> <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; RIGHT: auto" class=yiv806182499gmail_quote>Just noticed an error in my post. Of course I mean that Jay's thesis (not their) with regard to birth rates compared to abortion rates. Those three European countries have experienced economic difficulties and their abortion rates have not gone up as Jay thought they would.
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" class=yiv806182499gmail_quote>On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Nicholas <SPAN id=misspell-6 class=mark>Gier</SPAN> <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Good Morning Visionaries:</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">After a break to get on top of my taxes, I want to return to the abortion debate. I thank Keely for her article. I've only read a couple of pages, but the author is making some of the same points that I made 30 years ago in my article at <A href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm</A>. I will comment on it after I give it a good read.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Paul: the scenarios you lay out (fetus with a fatal disease; threat to the life of the mother) have been discussed for years and they have been used to argue the pro-choice position. I have always criticized the position “It’s my body so butt out,” because in most cases these women have not addressed the <SPAN id=misspell-7 class=mark>personhood</SPAN> of the fetus. I’m convinced, however, that established law (even Canon Law before 1917), science, and moral philosophy can survive the incoherent and mostly uninformed arguments of the anti-abortionists. I’m sure that these discussions, as they have been for centuries, will not be mere bantering as Jay so sarcastically suggested.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jay: I’ll try to make my points without using FULL CAPS, which I think distract and therefore weaken the force of your arguments.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I want to stress that my position, unlike most anti-abortionists, is consistently pro-life. After rain storms I frantically pick up worms on the side walk and place them on the grass or ground. I have come to the conclusion that all living beings that can experience pain should not be harmed or killed. We need to respect even those such as worms, which probably do not feel pain.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I have yet to see an argument that establishes a moral and therefore legal difference between their lives and ours. We already have laws on the books that prosecute people who cause animals unnecessary harm, so we can’t say that they don’t have any rights.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">That is the main point of my using the chimp fetus image. You claim that it is somehow a trap and you avoid it by saying that you would not protect the life of this being. Yet it looks just like a human fetus (most people don’t notice the bigger hands), it feels pain, it has a heartbeat, and it has brain waves equivalent to a second trimester human fetus. Of course it is an animal; that’s what we are too!</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">What is your reason for not protecting its life? If you don’t have any, then you are committing the fallacy of <SPAN id=misspell-8 class=mark>specieism</SPAN>—a moral mistake as wrong as racism and sexism.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The hundreds of people who tell me that they would protect the chimp fetus’s life have made the emotional connection of which you speak, so I’m not persuaded (even with all the caps) by your long paragraph attempting to make this point.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You seem to say that it is important for the state to force women to make the “connection” between their fetuses and their feelings about them. Here there is a gigantic disconnect in the conservative principle of personal responsibility. When it comes to people or companies acting in the financial markets and the environment, we hear cries of “leave them alone, let them take care of their own business.” </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bush II was notorious for voluntary controls on businesses, but the economist who was appointed by Bush I to sort out the S&L crisis has said that there were at least a million cases of financial fraud that Bush II failed to prosecute. The effects of the Great Recession could have been mitigated by vigorous prosecution by the Justice Department.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">But when it comes to reproductive rights, conservative male legislators do not trust women to make their own decisions. There is no <SPAN id=misspell-9 class=mark>laissez</SPAN>-<SPAN id=misspell-10 class=mark>faire</SPAN> here. To the contrary there are attempts to invade women’s wombs to make sure that they agree with the views of their attackers. It is not certainly unreasonable to call this a war and a frontal assault on the personal autonomy of women in the most fragile moments of their lives.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I can’t believe that you continue to beat around the bush about low rates of abortion in Western Europe. Your argument about low birth rates simply does not wash, because, according to date from Index <SPAN id=misspell-11 class=mark>Mundi</SPAN>, out of 20 Western European countries there are actually two with higher rates and the rest are with range of 2 percent of the U.S. rate of 11.4 births per 1,000 in 2009. </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You “wonder” about abortion rates in Greece, Portugal, and Spain, and their thesis is not supported. They are 12.1 percent, 10.2 percent, and 11.5 percent respectively. The U.S. rate was 19.6 in 2008. Let me stress that teen pregnancy rates, even among white girls, is two to three times higher than Western <BR>Europe and 4 to 5 times higher than Japan and Korea. Christian America has failed its young women miserably.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The comparison between protesting against killing people in war (or the death penalty for that matter) and abortion is wrong-headed for a simple reason: there is no question in anyone’s mind that <SPAN id=misspell-12 class=mark>Afghanis</SPAN> or Iraqis are moral and legal persons, but there is no consensus at all that the early fetus is. In fact, established law going back many centuries and the science of fetal development leads us to conclude that it is not a person. Yes, it is obviously a human life, but I've argued ad <SPAN id=misspell-13 class=mark>nauseum</SPAN> why that is not morally relevant.</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks for the <SPAN id=misspell-14 class=mark>dialogue</SPAN>,</SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv806182499MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Nick</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></div>
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<DIV>On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 8:30 AM, <SPAN id=misspell-15 class=mark>keely</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-16 class=mark>emerinemix</SPAN> <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" dir=ltr>Good morning, <SPAN id=misspell-17 class=mark>Visionaires</SPAN>,<BR><BR>For those who are convinced that their Christian faith, or the faith of others, requires a militant "no-abortion-under-any-circumstances" view on reproductive rights, I'd like to recommend the following article from the Religious Coalition on Reproductive Choice:<BR><BR><A href="http://rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf</A><BR><BR>This explains better than anything I've ever read what I mean, for example, when I say that while abortion is the ending of a human life, it is not the "murder" of a PERSON -- and the decision should not be the provenance of government to make. It's a long one, but well worth the effort, and evangelicals will recognize some names -- <SPAN id=misspell-18 class=mark>Stott</SPAN>, <SPAN id=misspell-19 class=mark>Criswell</SPAN>, <SPAN
id=misspell-20 class=mark>Waltke</SPAN> -- who held to views of abortion that might surprise them.<BR><BR>Good stuff that results in a profound reverence for life -- something lacking in the "pro-life" camp that's come to define evangelicalism. <BR><BR><FONT color=#8064a2><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" size=3><FONT face=Verdana>Keely<BR><A href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</A><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>=======================================================<BR> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR> serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-21 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A><BR> <SPAN id=misspell-22 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>=======================================================<BR> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR> serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-23 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A><BR> <SPAN id=misspell-24 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR></DIV></DIV><SPAN
class=yiv806182499HOEnZb><FONT color=#888888>-- <BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A><BR></FONT></SPAN></DIV><VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</A><BR></DIV><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the <SPAN id=misspell-25 class=mark>Palouse</SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A><BR> <SPAN id=misspell-26 class=mark>mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>