<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Art Deco</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 2:29 PM<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Christians and abortion: The Other View<br>To: Nicholas Gier <<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com">ngier006@gmail.com</a>><br><br><br>What the Bible inerrantists, who use the Bible to oppose abortion, hypocritically fail to mention is that the Bible recommends using a technique to induce abortion as a test when a husband thinks a wife is carrying another man's child.<br>
<br>w.<br>____________________________<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Numbers
5:11</span></b><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> – 5:22</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><i><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Young's Literal Translation of the Bible</span></i><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">11<span> </span>And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">12<span> </span>‘Speak unto the sons of Israel, and
thou hast said unto them, When any man’s wife turneth aside, and hath committed
against him a trespass,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">13<span> </span>and a man hath lain with her with the seed
of copulation, and it hath been hid from the eyes of her husband, and
concealed, and she hath been defiled, and there is no witness against her, and
she hath not been caught,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">14<span> </span>and a spirit of jealousy hath passed over
him, and he hath been jealous of his wife, and she hath been defiled;—or, a
spirit of jealousy hath passed over him, and he hath been jealous of his wife,
and she hath not been defiled—</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">15<span> </span>‘Then hath the man brought in his wife unto
the priest, and he hath brought in her offering for her, a tenth of the ephah
of barley meal, he doth not pour on it oil, nor doth he put on it frankincense,
for it is a present of jealousy, a present of memorial, causing remembrance of
iniquity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">16<span> </span>And the priest hath brought her near, and
hath caused her to stand before Jehovah,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">17<span> </span>and the priest hath taken holy water in an
earthen vessel, and of the dust which is on the floor of the tabernacle doth
the priest take, and hath put it into the water,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">18<span> </span>and the priest hath caused the woman to
stand before Jehovah, and hath uncovered the woman’s head, and hath given into
her hands the present of the memorial, it is a present of jealousy, and in the
hand of the priest are the bitter waters which cause the curse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">19<span> </span>‘And the priest hath caused her to swear,
and hath said unto the woman, If no man hath lain with thee, and if thou hast
not turned aside to uncleanness under thy husband, be free from these bitter
waters which cause the curse;</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">20<span> </span>and thou, if thou hast turned aside under
thy husband, and if thou hast been defiled, and any man doth give his
copulation to thee besides thy husband—</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">21<span> </span>(then the priest hath caused the woman to
swear with an oath of execration, and the priest hath said to the
woman)—Jehovah doth give thee for an execration, and for a curse, in the midst
of thy people, in Jehovah’s giving thy thigh to fall, and thy belly to swell,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">22<span> </span>and these waters which cause the curse have
gone into thy bowels, to cause the belly to swell, and the thigh to fall; and
the woman hath said, Amen, Amen.</span></p><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Nicholas Gier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Just noticed an error in my post. Of course I mean that Jay's thesis (not their) with regard to birth rates compared to abortion rates. Those three European countries have experienced economic difficulties and their abortion rates have not gone up as Jay thought they would.<div>
<br></div><div>Nick<div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 12:00 PM, Nicholas Gier <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ngier006@gmail.com" target="_blank">ngier006@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Good Morning Visionaries:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">After a break to get on top of my taxes, I want to return to
the abortion debate. I thank Keely for
her article. I've only read a couple of
pages, but the author is making some of the same points that I made 30 years
ago in my article at <a href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm" target="_blank">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/abortion.htm</a>. I will comment on it after I give it a good
read.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Paul: the scenarios you lay out (fetus with a fatal disease;
threat to the life of the mother) have been discussed for years and they have
been used to argue the pro-choice position.
I have always criticized the position “It’s my body so butt out,”
because in most cases these women have not addressed the personhood of the
fetus. I’m convinced, however, that
established law (even Canon Law before 1917), science, and moral philosophy can
survive the incoherent and mostly uninformed arguments of the
anti-abortionists. I’m sure that these
discussions, as they have been for centuries, will not be mere bantering as Jay
so sarcastically suggested.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Jay: I’ll try to make my points without using FULL CAPS,
which I think distract and therefore weaken the force of your arguments.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I want to stress that my position, unlike most anti-abortionists,
is consistently pro-life. After rain storms I frantically pick up worms on the
side walk and place them on the grass or ground. I have come to the conclusion
that all living beings that can experience pain should not be harmed or killed. We need to respect even those such as worms, which probably do not feel pain.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I have yet to see an argument that establishes a moral and therefore legal difference
between their lives and ours. We already have laws on the books that prosecute
people who cause animals unnecessary harm, so we can’t say that they don’t have
any rights.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">That is the main point of my using the chimp fetus
image. You claim that it is somehow a
trap and you avoid it by saying that you would not protect the life of this
being. Yet it looks just like a human
fetus (most people don’t notice the bigger hands), it feels pain, it has a heartbeat,
and it has brain waves equivalent to a second trimester human fetus. Of course it is an animal; that’s what we
are too!</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">What is your reason for not protecting its life? If you don’t have any, then you are
committing the fallacy of specieism—a moral mistake as wrong as racism and
sexism.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">The hundreds of people who tell me that they would protect
the chimp fetus’s life have made the emotional connection of which you speak,
so I’m not persuaded (even with all the caps) by your long paragraph attempting
to make this point.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">You seem to say that it is important for the state to force
women to make the “connection” between their fetuses and their feelings about
them. Here there is a gigantic
disconnect in the conservative principle of personal responsibility. When it comes to people or companies acting
in the financial markets and the environment, we hear cries of “leave them
alone, let them take care of their own business.” </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Bush II was notorious for voluntary controls
on businesses, but the economist who was appointed by Bush I to sort out the
S&L crisis has said that there were at least a million cases of financial
fraud that Bush II failed to prosecute.
The effects of the Great Recession could have been mitigated by vigorous
prosecution by the Justice Department.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">But when it comes to reproductive rights, conservative male
legislators do not trust women to make their own decisions. There is no laissez-faire here. To the contrary there are attempts to invade
women’s wombs to make sure that they agree with the views of their
attackers. It is not certainly unreasonable
to call this a war and a frontal assault on the personal autonomy of women in
the most fragile moments of their lives.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I
can’t believe that you continue to beat around the bush about low rates of abortion
in Western Europe. Your argument about
low birth rates simply does not wash, because, according to date from Index
Mundi, out of 20 Western European countries there are actually two with higher
rates and the rest are with range of 2 percent of the U.S. rate of 11.4 births
per 1,000 in 2009. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">You “wonder” about abortion rates in Greece, Portugal,
and Spain, and their thesis is not supported.
They are 12.1 percent, 10.2 percent, and 11.5 percent respectively. The U.S. rate was 19.6 in 2008. Let me stress that teen pregnancy rates, even among white girls, is two to three times higher than Western <br>Europe and 4 to 5 times higher than Japan and Korea. Christian America has failed its young women miserably.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">The
comparison between protesting against killing people in war (or the death
penalty for that matter) and abortion is wrong-headed for a simple reason:
there is no question in anyone’s mind that Afghanis or Iraqis are moral and
legal persons, but there is no consensus at all that the early fetus is. In fact, established law going back many
centuries and the science of fetal development leads us to conclude that it is not a
person. Yes, it is obviously a human life, but I've argued ad nauseum why that is not morally relevant.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" face="Georgia, serif"><br></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Thanks
for the dialogue,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">Nick</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:"Georgia","serif""> </span></p><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div>On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 8:30 AM, keely emerinemix <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com" target="_blank">kjajmix1@msn.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div>
<div><div dir="ltr">
Good morning, Visionaires,<br><br>For those who are convinced that their Christian faith, or the faith of others, requires a militant "no-abortion-under-any-circumstances" view on reproductive rights, I'd like to recommend the following article from the Religious Coalition on Reproductive Choice:<br>
<br><a href="http://rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf" target="_blank">http://rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf</a><br><br>This explains better than anything I've ever read what I mean, for example, when I say that while abortion is the ending of a human life, it is not the "murder" of a PERSON -- and the decision should not be the provenance of government to make. It's a long one, but well worth the effort, and evangelicals will recognize some names -- Stott, Criswell, Waltke -- who held to views of abortion that might surprise them.<br>
<br>Good stuff that results in a profound reverence for life -- something lacking in the "pro-life" camp that's come to define evangelicalism. <br><br><font color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size:12pt" size="3"><font face="Verdana">Keely<br>
<a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com" target="_blank">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br></font></font></font> </div></div>
<br></div></div>=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
<br>=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>
</font></span></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br><a href="mailto:art.deco.studios@gmail.com" target="_blank">art.deco.studios@gmail.com</a><br>