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<TITLE>RE: [Vision2020] WTF?</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Good Morning Visionaries:<BR>
<BR>
In Denmark (which is already carbon with several islands carbon negative) excess wind power is sent to Norway to pump water back up in their hydropower projects, and, on a lesser scale, used to produce hydrogen gas. Furthermore, Israel and Denmark are the only countries--using American technology--that are experimenting with storing excess wind power in the batteries of thousands of parked electric cars.<BR>
<BR>
For one carbon negative Danish island see my column attached. Here is the epigraph for the columns: "We are a conservative farming community. We are only normal people, not some special people."--Joergen Tranberg, Samsoe Island farmer<BR>
<BR>
Where there is a political will there are many ways to a carbon free future. The U.S. is horrible at a common political will. If conservative Danish farmers can do it, why can't conservative Americans?<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.<BR>
<BR>
-Greek proverb<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of Art Deco<BR>
Sent: Thu 3/8/2012 10:36 AM<BR>
To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] WTF?<BR>
<BR>
Large capacity storage: That is why electrolysis of water using the wind<BR>
power is a possible solution. It takes into account the variablilty of<BR>
wind and solar power and provides a means of storage and regeneration when<BR>
the power is needed. This isn't my idea. The idea was around from the<BR>
late 1960s.<BR>
<BR>
w.<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 9:33 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Ultimately, the problem with wind power is that it's not a constant load<BR>
> solution. We need some kind of energy storage solution that is<BR>
> cost-effective, efficient, and high capacity. Then we can use wind and<BR>
> solar to recharge the energy storage system and be buffered from the<BR>
> vagaries of wind speed and cloud cover. Without that, we end up with a lot<BR>
> of our windmills not moving and our solar panels not receiving enough<BR>
> sunlight some of the time and falling short at others. We also need a<BR>
> smarter electrical grid that can handle the fluctuations better and be<BR>
> smart enough to route energy to these energy storage systems when needed.<BR>
> If the government wants to spend money on renewable energy, I would say<BR>
> spend it on electrical grid upgrades and large-capacity energy storage<BR>
> first. Or nuclear, which actually *is* a base-load solution.<BR>
><BR>
> Paul<BR>
><BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios@gmail.com><BR>
> *To:* vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 8, 2012 8:04 AM<BR>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] WTF?<BR>
><BR>
> Thank you.<BR>
><BR>
> It is a complex subject. But does it make sense to pay for power not<BR>
> produced when water can be left through the dams free?<BR>
><BR>
> Those of us with $200 - $300 per month electricity bills fail to believe<BR>
> the cheapness argument.<BR>
><BR>
> w.<BR>
><BR>
> On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:03 PM, Ron Force <rforce2003@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
> I think it's something like this:<BR>
> Wind power is currently not price competitive with hydro-power or natural<BR>
> gas without state laws that require "green energy" and tax breaks. The cost<BR>
> of the machinery to electrolyze water, store the hydrogen, and turn it back<BR>
> into electricity would add to the already non-competitive cost of wind<BR>
> power.<BR>
><BR>
> The Whistling Ridge project, just approved by Gregoire over the objections<BR>
> of conservationists, is on hold by the developers for economic reasons--<BR>
> the price of electricity is so low they can't make it pencil out.<BR>
><BR>
> Ron Force<BR>
> Moscow Idaho USA<BR>
> ------------------------------<BR>
> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios@gmail.com><BR>
> *To:* vision2020@moscow.com<BR>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 7, 2012 6:03 PM<BR>
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] WTF?<BR>
><BR>
> Why not use the excess power to electrolyze water into hydrogen and<BR>
> oxygen, store these gases, then use them to generate electricity when the<BR>
> demand is greater?<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> <A HREF="http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews">http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/07/wind-power-companies-paid-to-not-produce/?test=latestnews</A><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>
> art.deco.studios@gmail.com<BR>
><BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>
> <A HREF="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>
> <A HREF="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>
> art.deco.studios@gmail.com<BR>
><BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>
> <A HREF="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>
> <A HREF="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>
> =======================================================<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR>
art.deco.studios@gmail.com<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
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