I don't think anyone hates anyone, except maybe for the greedy bankers who ruined our economy by spreading around toxic CDOs. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim for a higher effective tax rate for individuals making millions and millions of dollars. The rich can handle it better, it's more fair, and right now America needs the public revenues, if for no other reason than to pay down the debt. Under FDR the highest tax bracket was 90%. Even under Nixon it was 70%, and for much of Reagan's term it was 50%. Right now it is 35%, and so many Occupiers think it would be good to push that top marginal tax rate back to Reagan levels. There is also a strong argument for raising the capital gains tax, which is where most of the 1%'s income comes from, anyway. It's more fair, the rich can handle it better, and right now America needs the public revenues. There is no reason that Warren Buffet should be paying a lower effective tax rate than his secretary.<div>
<br></div><div>Aside from that, Occupy has been making many of the arguments you seem to be asking them to make. They are against corporate tax loopholes, they are against corporate personhood, they are against a system which allows the financial industry to leverage our own economy against us (i.e. reinstate Glass-Steagall). A lot of them also support Campaign Finance Reform (because a system that allows the 1% an exponentially larger amount of influence in the elections is unjust, un-Democratic, and unAmerican), and I have heard quite a few call out for Electoral Reform (move from plurality voting to preferential, thereby allowing for 3rd parties).</div>
<div><br></div><div>To me, Paul, your amorphous argument against Occupy does not seem significant or relevant. Maybe I just don't understand your position?</div><div><br></div><div>-Reggie<br><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<u></u>
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<br>
It's indiscriminate class warfare. Targeting people based solely
on how much money they have is not any different than targeting
someone based on any other random criteria. So, instead of
targeting randomly wealthy people, target those who worked to pass
those laws. Target the laws themselves.<br>
<br>
It's the difference between saying "I hate you because you are rich"
and "I hate you specifically because you made a deal with a
congressman to get a special tax benefit that no others have so you
could unfairly increase your profits on the backs of all tax
payers". One requires actually thinking about the problem and doing
some research in an effort to fix it. The other is just lashing out
because someone is doing well while they are not.<br>
<br>
Target the greedy, not the well-to-do. They overlap a lot, but not
completely.<br>
<br>
I'd love for the Occupy Idaho folks to scour the State tax code
looking for unfair tax benefits and expose them. Much more
beneficial than just making a statement.<br><font color="#888888">
<br>
Paul</font><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 11/13/2011 02:00 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
Paul,<br>
<br>
You say, 'Condemn the laws that encourage it, such as the
ability of shareholders to sue if a company is making a decision
that affects short-term profits in favor of long-term growth or
the various tax dodges written into the tax code to benefit
specific companies over their competition (making for a non-free
trade market).'<br>
<br>
Do you think those laws are somehow disconnected from the
institutions that pass and sign them? Did they just spring up,
somehow disconnected from their beneficiaries and sponsors?<br>
<br>
Of course there's a direct connection between a ruling class
this wealthy, and legislation that benefits others in their
group, and in whose pockets they so comfortably dwell.<br>
<br>
How come that's not class warfare? How come it's only class
warfare when someone says, 'Those guys are screwing us?'<br>
<br>
Sunil<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:09:18 -0800<br>
From: <a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank">godshatter@yahoo.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The 1% in Congress<br>
<br>
<br>
This kind of thing is a good illustration of what concerns me
about this whole 1% / 99% metric. Here is a list of people
who are in Congress who have a lot of money. So what? There
is no indication as to how these people got their money. No
condemnation of certain Congressmen because they passed
legislation that directly helped their bottom line. No effort
to separate the wheat from the chaff. How many of these
people came into their wealth and decided they wanted to do
something good with it but also understand the idea behind the
phrase "free milk and a cow"? The only thing we can say is
that they are doing well.<br>
<br>
it looks vaguely like a target list, frankly. What ever
happened to the good old American Dream(tm)? <br>
<br>
What we should be focused on is unmitigated greed. It exists
in all levels of society, not just in the most wealthy.
Condemn the laws that encourage it, such as the ability of
shareholders to sue if a company is making a decision that
affects short-term profits in favor of long-term growth or the
various tax dodges written into the tax code to benefit
specific companies over their competition (making for a
non-free trade market). There are plenty other examples of
outright greed that we could be focusing on. Instead, we are
focusing on net wealth as some kind of metric of Good vs.
Evil. Sure, the wealthy could be doing more to help the poor,
but so could each one of us. <br>
<br>
While we're on the subject of the seven deadly sins, why not
take a close look at "envy" while we're at it? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 11/11/2011 04:34 PM, Ron Force wrote:
<blockquote>
<div style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:12pt">
<div><strong>Table 2: All members of Congress with average
net worth above $9 million, from 2009</strong></div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<th>Name</th>
<th>Minimum Wealth</th>
<th>Maximum Wealth</th>
<th>Average</th>
<th>Chamber</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Darrell Issa (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$156,050,022</td>
<td>$451,100,000</td>
<td>$303,575,011</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Kerry (D-Mass.)</td>
<td>$182,755,534</td>
<td>$294,869,059</td>
<td>$238,812,296</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mark Warner (D-Va.)</td>
<td>$65,692,210</td>
<td>$283,077,995</td>
<td>$174,385,102</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jared Polis (D-Colo.)</td>
<td>$36,694,140</td>
<td>$285,123,996</td>
<td>$160,909,068</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Herb Kohl (D-Wis.)</td>
<td>$89,358,027</td>
<td>$231,245,995</td>
<td>$160,302,011</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Vernon Buchanan (R-Fla.)</td>
<td>-$69,434,661</td>
<td>$366,180,982</td>
<td>$148,373,160</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Michael McCaul (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$73,685,086</td>
<td>$201,537,000</td>
<td>$137,611,043</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>James E. Risch (R-Idaho)</td>
<td>$38,936,114</td>
<td>$179,131,990</td>
<td>$109,034,052</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.)</td>
<td>$61,446,018</td>
<td>$136,218,002</td>
<td>$98,832,010</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.)</td>
<td>$64,210,256</td>
<td>$125,529,976</td>
<td>$94,870,116</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>$46,055,250</td>
<td>$108,109,018</td>
<td>$77,082,134</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Frank R. Lautenberg (D-N.J.)</td>
<td>$49,083,204</td>
<td>$104,690,018</td>
<td>$76,886,611</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>-$7,356,915</td>
<td>$124,229,990</td>
<td>$58,436,537</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Gary Miller (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$19,365,053</td>
<td>$84,302,000</td>
<td>$51,833,526</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Bob Corker (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$9,778,047</td>
<td>$91,656,998</td>
<td>$50,717,522</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Diane Lynn Black (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$14,673,049</td>
<td>$84,145,990</td>
<td>$49,409,519</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.)</td>
<td>$19,898,179</td>
<td>$67,697,000</td>
<td>$43,797,589</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rick Berg (R-N.D.)</td>
<td>$19,347,579</td>
<td>$58,981,451</td>
<td>$39,164,515</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nita M. Lowey (D-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$14,900,036</td>
<td>$63,125,000</td>
<td>$39,012,518</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Kenny Marchant (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$13,303,385</td>
<td>$63,106,351</td>
<td>$38,204,868</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.)</td>
<td>$6,598,014</td>
<td>$56,244,997</td>
<td>$31,421,505</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Scott Rigell (R-Va.)</td>
<td>$11,618,078</td>
<td>$48,200,000</td>
<td>$29,909,039</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine)</td>
<td>$12,556,055</td>
<td>$44,669,000</td>
<td>$28,612,527</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>James B. Renacci (R-Ohio)</td>
<td>$17,571,131</td>
<td>$39,297,044</td>
<td>$28,434,087</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$11,522,909</td>
<td>$44,209,871</td>
<td>$27,866,390</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Carolyn B. Maloney (D-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$7,045,017</td>
<td>$41,899,994</td>
<td>$24,472,505</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Petri (R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$5,111,026</td>
<td>$43,765,999</td>
<td>$24,438,512</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Campbell (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$9,227,063</td>
<td>$37,282,000</td>
<td>$23,254,531</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Steve Pearce (R-N.M.)</td>
<td>$8,368,014</td>
<td>$37,945,000</td>
<td>$23,156,507</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Richard L Hanna (R-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$10,960,117</td>
<td>$33,276,000</td>
<td>$22,118,058</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.)</td>
<td>$15,681,206</td>
<td>$27,543,006</td>
<td>$21,612,106</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Blake Farenthold (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$10,359,086</td>
<td>$31,381,997</td>
<td>$20,870,541</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Hoeven (R-N.D.)</td>
<td>-$12,829,960</td>
<td>$52,851,999</td>
<td>$20,011,019</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.)</td>
<td>$7,102,036</td>
<td>$32,756,000</td>
<td>$19,929,018</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Kay R. Hagan (D-N.C.)</td>
<td>$3,549,596</td>
<td>$33,149,981</td>
<td>$18,349,788</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$14,990,621</td>
<td>$20,923,567</td>
<td>$17,957,094</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Ron Johnson (R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$1,056,768</td>
<td>$34,566,596</td>
<td>$17,811,682</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Michael F Bennet (D-Colo.)</td>
<td>$6,217,020</td>
<td>$27,780,000</td>
<td>$16,998,510</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Harkin (D-Iowa)</td>
<td>$10,447,125</td>
<td>$23,082,001</td>
<td>$16,764,563</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nan Hayworth (R-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$9,542,219</td>
<td>$23,259,000</td>
<td>$16,400,609</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Fred Upton (R-Mich.)</td>
<td>$7,010,173</td>
<td>$25,651,000</td>
<td>$16,330,586</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rosa L. DeLauro (D-Conn.)</td>
<td>$5,429,018</td>
<td>$26,697,997</td>
<td>$16,063,507</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John McCain (R-Ariz.)</td>
<td>$9,769,247</td>
<td>$22,072,994</td>
<td>$15,921,120</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)</td>
<td>$7,790,095</td>
<td>$20,949,999</td>
<td>$14,370,047</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Cynthia Marie Lummis (R-Wyo.)</td>
<td>$4,939,028</td>
<td>$23,591,999</td>
<td>$14,265,513</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.)</td>
<td>$6,393,295</td>
<td>$20,874,000</td>
<td>$13,633,647</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.)</td>
<td>$6,593,088</td>
<td>$20,654,033</td>
<td>$13,623,560</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jackie Speier (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>$4,561,077</td>
<td>$20,503,000</td>
<td>$12,532,038</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Price (R-Ga.)</td>
<td>$7,653,606</td>
<td>$17,121,588</td>
<td>$12,387,597</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Ben Nelson (D-Neb.)</td>
<td>$8,010,107</td>
<td>$16,623,001</td>
<td>$12,316,554</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Trent Franks (R-Ariz.)</td>
<td>$4,100,005</td>
<td>$20,250,000</td>
<td>$12,175,002</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Randy Neugebauer (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$6,126,070</td>
<td>$18,078,998</td>
<td>$12,102,534</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)</td>
<td>$6,407,085</td>
<td>$17,427,999</td>
<td>$11,917,542</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rob Portman (R-Ohio)</td>
<td>$5,544,075</td>
<td>$17,468,999</td>
<td>$11,506,537</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>David Dreier (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$5,264,092</td>
<td>$17,715,000</td>
<td>$11,489,546</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>David B. McKinley (R-W.Va.)</td>
<td>$5,216,060</td>
<td>$14,316,000</td>
<td>$9,766,030</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John A. Yarmuth (D-Ky.)</td>
<td>$2,850,009</td>
<td>$16,349,999</td>
<td>$9,600,004</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Fleming (R-La.)</td>
<td>$2,153,834</td>
<td>$16,797,770</td>
<td>$9,475,802</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jon Runyan (R-N.J.)</td>
<td>$5,000,034</td>
<td>$13,674,999</td>
<td>$9,337,516</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div>Source: <a href="http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/index.php" target="_blank">Center for Responsive Politics</a></div>
</div>
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