<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Which "people who are having a bad time financially" are you talkin' about, Mr. Rumelhart?</div><div><br></div><div>Ya mean David Crosby and Graham Nash?</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/occupy-wall-street-david-crosby-and-graham-nash-perform-live-on-countdown-discuss-the-movement">http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/occupy-wall-street-david-crosby-and-graham-nash-perform-live-on-countdown-discuss-the-movement</a></div><div> <br><div>Seeya round town, Moscow.w</div><div><br></div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div>"If not us, who?</div><div>If not now, when?"</div><div><br></div><div>- Unknown</div></div><div><br>On Nov 13, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Paul Rumelhart <<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<br>
I haven't seen a lot of well-reasoned commentary by protesters in
general. I've seen a few eloquent individuals on Youtube that had
obviously thought this through, but the majority of what I've seen
has been an unfocused angst from people who are having a bad time
financially and are lashing out at those who aren't. <br>
<br>
Everyone seems to take my commentary as unblinking opposition when
it isn't. I could say the sky is blue and people on here would go
out of their way to show me how wrong I am by showing me pictures of
the sky on a cloudy day or at night. There are, however, two main
reasons I'm speaking up here about this:<br>
<br>
One: This is a prime opportunity for change to be made. The
climate is right for it. The power of the people could really do
some good here. Instead, we get articles like the one Jay posted
about a bunch of miscreants and their sense of entitlement. Just
camping out is not enough. Organize! I may even join you! (You
being the OWS movement, I don't know if you're a member or not).<br>
<br>
Two: This focus on class can have some real downsides. A generic
rant against the wealthy isn't helpful. It's no different on it's
face than a generic rant about a particular religion or culture that
has some bad members. There is a lot of potential here for ugliness
on that scale. How long until someone who looks well off gets their
ass handed to them by a crowd of protesters? There is real danger
here. It would go a long way for the movement to acknowledge that
and to focus on rational arguments and plans to fix them rather than
a simple venting of frustration.<br>
<br>
All of this is just my opinion, of course. It's based on what I've
happened to come across in the media. I don't get TV, nor do I
listen to much radio (except for NPR when I drive to work). Most of
what I've seen comes from online media, usually referenced by people
already involved in an argument on a forum somewhere. Your mileage
may vary.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 11/13/2011 06:04 PM, Reggie Holmquist wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:CAH8Vr5JXmRY-DbJsGHwZnremg23vV36n-USi-qrBvFQt6gEqqg@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">I don't think anyone hates anyone, except maybe for
the greedy bankers who ruined our economy by spreading around
toxic CDOs. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't aim for a
higher effective tax rate for individuals making millions and
millions of dollars. The rich can handle it better, it's more
fair, and right now America needs the public revenues, if for no
other reason than to pay down the debt. Under FDR the highest tax
bracket was 90%. Even under Nixon it was 70%, and for much of
Reagan's term it was 50%. Right now it is 35%, and so many
Occupiers think it would be good to push that top marginal tax
rate back to Reagan levels. There is also a strong argument for
raising the capital gains tax, which is where most of the 1%'s
income comes from, anyway. It's more fair, the rich can handle it
better, and right now America needs the public revenues. There is
no reason that Warren Buffet should be paying a lower effective
tax rate than his secretary.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Aside from that, Occupy has been making many of the arguments
you seem to be asking them to make. They are against corporate
tax loopholes, they are against corporate personhood, they are
against a system which allows the financial industry to leverage
our own economy against us (i.e. reinstate Glass-Steagall). A
lot of them also support Campaign Finance Reform (because a
system that allows the 1% an exponentially larger amount of
influence in the elections is unjust, un-Democratic, and
unAmerican), and I have heard quite a few call out for Electoral
Reform (move from plurality voting to preferential, thereby
allowing for 3rd parties).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To me, Paul, your amorphous argument against Occupy does not
seem significant or relevant. Maybe I just don't understand
your position?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Reggie<br>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Paul Rumelhart <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff"> <br>
It's indiscriminate class warfare. Targeting people
based solely on how much money they have is not any
different than targeting someone based on any other
random criteria. So, instead of targeting randomly
wealthy people, target those who worked to pass those
laws. Target the laws themselves.<br>
<br>
It's the difference between saying "I hate you because
you are rich" and "I hate you specifically because you
made a deal with a congressman to get a special tax
benefit that no others have so you could unfairly
increase your profits on the backs of all tax payers".
One requires actually thinking about the problem and
doing some research in an effort to fix it. The other
is just lashing out because someone is doing well while
they are not.<br>
<br>
Target the greedy, not the well-to-do. They overlap a
lot, but not completely.<br>
<br>
I'd love for the Occupy Idaho folks to scour the State
tax code looking for unfair tax benefits and expose
them. Much more beneficial than just making a
statement.<br>
<font color="#888888"> <br>
Paul</font>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 11/13/2011 02:00 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"> Paul,<br>
<br>
You say, 'Condemn the laws that encourage it,
such as the ability of shareholders to sue if a
company is making a decision that affects
short-term profits in favor of long-term growth
or the various tax dodges written into the tax
code to benefit specific companies over their
competition (making for a non-free trade
market).'<br>
<br>
Do you think those laws are somehow disconnected
from the institutions that pass and sign them?
Did they just spring up, somehow disconnected
from their beneficiaries and sponsors?<br>
<br>
Of course there's a direct connection between a
ruling class this wealthy, and legislation that
benefits others in their group, and in whose
pockets they so comfortably dwell.<br>
<br>
How come that's not class warfare? How come it's
only class warfare when someone says, 'Those
guys are screwing us?'<br>
<br>
Sunil<br>
<br>
<div>
<hr>Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:09:18 -0800<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a></a><br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a></a><br>
CC: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] The 1% in Congress<br>
<br>
<br>
This kind of thing is a good illustration of
what concerns me about this whole 1% / 99%
metric. Here is a list of people who are in
Congress who have a lot of money. So what?
There is no indication as to how these people
got their money. No condemnation of certain
Congressmen because they passed legislation
that directly helped their bottom line. No
effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.
How many of these people came into their
wealth and decided they wanted to do something
good with it but also understand the idea
behind the phrase "free milk and a cow"? The
only thing we can say is that they are doing
well.<br>
<br>
it looks vaguely like a target list, frankly.
What ever happened to the good old American
Dream(tm)? <br>
<br>
What we should be focused on is unmitigated
greed. It exists in all levels of society,
not just in the most wealthy. Condemn the
laws that encourage it, such as the ability of
shareholders to sue if a company is making a
decision that affects short-term profits in
favor of long-term growth or the various tax
dodges written into the tax code to benefit
specific companies over their competition
(making for a non-free trade market). There
are plenty other examples of outright greed
that we could be focusing on. Instead, we are
focusing on net wealth as some kind of metric
of Good vs. Evil. Sure, the wealthy could be
doing more to help the poor, but so could each
one of us. <br>
<br>
While we're on the subject of the seven deadly
sins, why not take a close look at "envy"
while we're at it? <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 11/11/2011 04:34 PM, Ron Force wrote:
<blockquote>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: times new roman,new
york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div><strong>Table 2: All members of
Congress with average net worth above
$9 million, from 2009</strong></div>
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<th>Name</th>
<th>Minimum Wealth</th>
<th>Maximum Wealth</th>
<th>Average</th>
<th>Chamber</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Darrell Issa (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$156,050,022</td>
<td>$451,100,000</td>
<td>$303,575,011</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Kerry (D-Mass.)</td>
<td>$182,755,534</td>
<td>$294,869,059</td>
<td>$238,812,296</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mark Warner (D-Va.)</td>
<td>$65,692,210</td>
<td>$283,077,995</td>
<td>$174,385,102</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jared Polis (D-Colo.)</td>
<td>$36,694,140</td>
<td>$285,123,996</td>
<td>$160,909,068</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Herb Kohl (D-Wis.)</td>
<td>$89,358,027</td>
<td>$231,245,995</td>
<td>$160,302,011</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Vernon Buchanan (R-Fla.)</td>
<td>-$69,434,661</td>
<td>$366,180,982</td>
<td>$148,373,160</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Michael McCaul (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$73,685,086</td>
<td>$201,537,000</td>
<td>$137,611,043</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>James E. Risch (R-Idaho)</td>
<td>$38,936,114</td>
<td>$179,131,990</td>
<td>$109,034,052</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.)</td>
<td>$61,446,018</td>
<td>$136,218,002</td>
<td>$98,832,010</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.)</td>
<td>$64,210,256</td>
<td>$125,529,976</td>
<td>$94,870,116</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>$46,055,250</td>
<td>$108,109,018</td>
<td>$77,082,134</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Frank R. Lautenberg (D-N.J.)</td>
<td>$49,083,204</td>
<td>$104,690,018</td>
<td>$76,886,611</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>-$7,356,915</td>
<td>$124,229,990</td>
<td>$58,436,537</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Gary Miller (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$19,365,053</td>
<td>$84,302,000</td>
<td>$51,833,526</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Bob Corker (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$9,778,047</td>
<td>$91,656,998</td>
<td>$50,717,522</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Diane Lynn Black (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$14,673,049</td>
<td>$84,145,990</td>
<td>$49,409,519</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.)</td>
<td>$19,898,179</td>
<td>$67,697,000</td>
<td>$43,797,589</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rick Berg (R-N.D.)</td>
<td>$19,347,579</td>
<td>$58,981,451</td>
<td>$39,164,515</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nita M. Lowey (D-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$14,900,036</td>
<td>$63,125,000</td>
<td>$39,012,518</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Kenny Marchant (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$13,303,385</td>
<td>$63,106,351</td>
<td>$38,204,868</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.)</td>
<td>$6,598,014</td>
<td>$56,244,997</td>
<td>$31,421,505</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Scott Rigell (R-Va.)</td>
<td>$11,618,078</td>
<td>$48,200,000</td>
<td>$29,909,039</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Olympia J. Snowe (R-Maine)</td>
<td>$12,556,055</td>
<td>$44,669,000</td>
<td>$28,612,527</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>James B. Renacci (R-Ohio)</td>
<td>$17,571,131</td>
<td>$39,297,044</td>
<td>$28,434,087</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lamar Alexander (R-Tenn.)</td>
<td>$11,522,909</td>
<td>$44,209,871</td>
<td>$27,866,390</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Carolyn B. Maloney (D-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$7,045,017</td>
<td>$41,899,994</td>
<td>$24,472,505</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Petri (R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$5,111,026</td>
<td>$43,765,999</td>
<td>$24,438,512</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Campbell (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$9,227,063</td>
<td>$37,282,000</td>
<td>$23,254,531</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Steve Pearce (R-N.M.)</td>
<td>$8,368,014</td>
<td>$37,945,000</td>
<td>$23,156,507</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Richard L Hanna (R-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$10,960,117</td>
<td>$33,276,000</td>
<td>$22,118,058</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.)</td>
<td>$15,681,206</td>
<td>$27,543,006</td>
<td>$21,612,106</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Blake Farenthold (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$10,359,086</td>
<td>$31,381,997</td>
<td>$20,870,541</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Hoeven (R-N.D.)</td>
<td>-$12,829,960</td>
<td>$52,851,999</td>
<td>$20,011,019</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.)</td>
<td>$7,102,036</td>
<td>$32,756,000</td>
<td>$19,929,018</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Kay R. Hagan (D-N.C.)</td>
<td>$3,549,596</td>
<td>$33,149,981</td>
<td>$18,349,788</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>F. James Sensenbrenner Jr.
(R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$14,990,621</td>
<td>$20,923,567</td>
<td>$17,957,094</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Ron Johnson (R-Wis.)</td>
<td>$1,056,768</td>
<td>$34,566,596</td>
<td>$17,811,682</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Michael F Bennet (D-Colo.)</td>
<td>$6,217,020</td>
<td>$27,780,000</td>
<td>$16,998,510</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Harkin (D-Iowa)</td>
<td>$10,447,125</td>
<td>$23,082,001</td>
<td>$16,764,563</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Nan Hayworth (R-N.Y.)</td>
<td>$9,542,219</td>
<td>$23,259,000</td>
<td>$16,400,609</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Fred Upton (R-Mich.)</td>
<td>$7,010,173</td>
<td>$25,651,000</td>
<td>$16,330,586</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rosa L. DeLauro (D-Conn.)</td>
<td>$5,429,018</td>
<td>$26,697,997</td>
<td>$16,063,507</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John McCain (R-Ariz.)</td>
<td>$9,769,247</td>
<td>$22,072,994</td>
<td>$15,921,120</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)</td>
<td>$7,790,095</td>
<td>$20,949,999</td>
<td>$14,370,047</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Cynthia Marie Lummis (R-Wyo.)</td>
<td>$4,939,028</td>
<td>$23,591,999</td>
<td>$14,265,513</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.)</td>
<td>$6,393,295</td>
<td>$20,874,000</td>
<td>$13,633,647</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.)</td>
<td>$6,593,088</td>
<td>$20,654,033</td>
<td>$13,623,560</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jackie Speier (D-Calif.)</td>
<td>$4,561,077</td>
<td>$20,503,000</td>
<td>$12,532,038</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Tom Price (R-Ga.)</td>
<td>$7,653,606</td>
<td>$17,121,588</td>
<td>$12,387,597</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Ben Nelson (D-Neb.)</td>
<td>$8,010,107</td>
<td>$16,623,001</td>
<td>$12,316,554</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Trent Franks (R-Ariz.)</td>
<td>$4,100,005</td>
<td>$20,250,000</td>
<td>$12,175,002</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Randy Neugebauer (R-Texas)</td>
<td>$6,126,070</td>
<td>$18,078,998</td>
<td>$12,102,534</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Johnny Isakson (R-Ga.)</td>
<td>$6,407,085</td>
<td>$17,427,999</td>
<td>$11,917,542</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Rob Portman (R-Ohio)</td>
<td>$5,544,075</td>
<td>$17,468,999</td>
<td>$11,506,537</td>
<td>Senate</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>David Dreier (R-Calif.)</td>
<td>$5,264,092</td>
<td>$17,715,000</td>
<td>$11,489,546</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>David B. McKinley (R-W.Va.)</td>
<td>$5,216,060</td>
<td>$14,316,000</td>
<td>$9,766,030</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John A. Yarmuth (D-Ky.)</td>
<td>$2,850,009</td>
<td>$16,349,999</td>
<td>$9,600,004</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>John Fleming (R-La.)</td>
<td>$2,153,834</td>
<td>$16,797,770</td>
<td>$9,475,802</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Jon Runyan (R-N.J.)</td>
<td>$5,000,034</td>
<td>$13,674,999</td>
<td>$9,337,516</td>
<td>House</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<div>Source: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/index.php" target="_blank">Center for Responsive
Politics</a></div>
</div>
<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>
=======================================================</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step
Internet, serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994. <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>
=======================================================</div>
</div>
<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>
=======================================================</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a><br>
mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>
=======================================================<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers
exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will
instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more
bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states
that this has already happened. <br>
<br>
Douglas Adams<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br><span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.fsr.net"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a></span><br><span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></span><br><span>=======================================================</span></div></blockquote></body></html>