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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I disagree with the vast majority of your points, but it’s moot…. if after all that you say that a “fair tax would be one that didn’t tax a worker [earned income] until after $30k (no exceptions)”, then we’re closer to being on the same page, even if for different opinions. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If that’s a compromise I had to make to get a flat-tax system in place? I would be for it… (I would swap out the arbitrary $30k minimum to something keyed to the accepted poverty line, but that’s just me).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I would only counter that “printing more money to pay the debts” being any sort of “fair” viable solution… in fact, it’s not really a solution at all, since inflation is the result/symptom of a market condition, not an actual tool that can be wielded at will. (You can’t really surgically raise or lower inflation as you wish, you can only witness the effects OF inflation and try to respond to it). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s funny to hear news pundits confidently saying that “inflation is just a tax on the wealthy” (as if they truly know or understand what they’re talking about)… but that’s such a tiny part of it. With inflation EVERYONE gets hurt… from the devaluation of the currency and cost of rising goods…. right through to the increase in interest rates necessary to put the brakes on the problem in the first place.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Using inflation as a tool to “pay government debts” is like saying something like… I dunno… “If I pull my shoe strings hard enough while standing, I can levitate”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jay<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 17, 2011 9:56 PM<br><b>To:</b> Jay Borden; Tom Hansen<br><b>Cc:</b> Vision 2020<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>Jay,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>A flat tax is not fair. It is a regressive tax. People closer to the poverty line cannot afford to pay 9% tax on everything. Wealthy people can. Wealthy people also control the means of production and wages. Which means they can just raise prices on goods and services and lower wages to cover their cut in pay. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>It also isn't fair because the majority of tax dollars are used to support the wealthy. The government subsidies labor costs and business losses. Most government city services are used to protect the wealthy property owners property. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>It also isn't necessary or productive to tax the bottom 80% of the population 9% on everything. When 90% of the wealth is in the hands of 10% of the population, it makes since to get 95% of the taxes from that population. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>A fair tax would be one that didn't tax a worker on their first $30,000 earned, and did a flat tax on everything else, with no exceptions. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>Another fair way to pay government debts would be to print the money to pay debts. This would cause inflation taking it more from the wealthy and less from those with little wealth or who are in debt. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>Or maybe a combination of the two. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'>Donovan Arnold<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:18.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Jay Borden <jborden@datawedge.com><br><b>To:</b> Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com><br><b>Cc:</b> Vision 2020 <Vision2020@moscow.com><br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 17, 2011 1:25 PM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<br></span><span style='color:black'><br>Am I? I don't remember using any of those words. Perhaps if you<br>stopped rolling your eyes long enough to actually read what I wrote, you<br>would notice I never said anything like "it is ok to screw over the<br>little guy"... (or maybe I should be using more capital letters for<br>better visuals in my writings).<br><br>I'll try again. <br><br>We have a tax code that is riddled with exceptions, deductions,<br>loopholes, political favors, and eons of heavy-hitting sideline<br>influence. <br><br>People are crying for "transparency"... a flat tax system is pretty<br>transparent. And so long as it STAYS that way, it would be politically<br>difficult to start the ball rolling to create such a tax code of<br>exceptions again. (Note I use the word "difficult", not "impossible").<br>The first time a lobbying organization sways a politician to say "I<br>propose a bill to change the 9% to '9% except in the case of diabetic<br>left-handed dentists', you would have a backlash of opposition (and a<br>noticeably silent population of obese left-handed dentists on the<br>issue). That's transparency. <br><br>People are crying for "fair"... a flat tax system in three different<br>categories seems pretty fair. <br><br>You would pay federal taxes on income, sales, and businesses would pay<br>9% of their earnings. That seems pretty fair.<br><br>It even addresses the "fairness relative to income" argument that I keep<br>hearing (where the definition of "fair" actually translates to "if you<br>have more you pay more..."). <br><br>Anyone who consumes pays the 9% sales tax... Anyone who earns (business<br>or individual) pays the 9% income tax. <br><br>If you're rich? You're probably going to get taxed in all three areas.<br><br>If you're poor? You're probably going to pay the 9% consumption tax and<br>are less concerned about a 9% tax on your business earnings.<br><br>Now... it could be (legitimately) argued that the 9% business earnings<br>tax would probably just be passed on to the customer in the forms of<br>higher prices/goods, and therefore the "effective" tax rate would be<br>higher for consumers. For that reason (to keep it *fair*), it might be<br>better to have a 9-9-9 be in the form of income, sales, and capital<br>gains (dropping the *business* tax rate down to 0%)... <br><br>For the "double-taxation" arguments? (State + Federal now gives a<br>doubled up sales/income tax?) We're already double-taxed. We already<br>pay a state income tax and a federal income tax. If you're Oregon and<br>you still don't want to charge a state sales tax? Fine... don't do<br>it... that's a state decision. If you're Washington and you don't want<br>to charge a state income tax? Fine... don't do it... that's a state<br>decision. <br><br>Again, I don't know if 9-9-9 is a "magic number combo"... but in<br>*principal* this plan addresses the primary bullet points of "fair" and<br>"transparent"... <br><br><br>Jay<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Tom Hansen [mailto:<a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a>] <br>Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 10:51 AM<br>To: Jay Borden<br>Cc: lfalen; Art Deco; Vision 2020<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<br><br>Apparently what Mr. Borden is suggesting is that it is ok to screw over<br>the little guy as long as it is done in the open?<br><br>Seeya round town, Moscow.<br><br>Tom Hansen<br>Moscow, Idaho<br><br>"Honest and true,<br>As the morning star.<br>Vote for just two,<br>Ament and Lamar."<br><br>On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:22 AM, "Jay Borden" <<a href="mailto:jborden@datawedge.com">jborden@datawedge.com</a>><br>wrote:<br><br>> I frankly don't have the numbers and haven't done much reading or<br>> research to know whether 9-9-9 is good or bad, so I have to "punt" on<br>> specifics.<br>> <br>> But I do find it interesting in an era where the folks screaming<br>> "transparency" and "fair" as the solution to the nation's woes<br>suddenly<br>> recoil in horror when a tax plan emerges that is perhaps the MOST<br>> transparent and fair we have seen in recent generations.<br>> <br>> If folks were truly interested in "fair" and "transparency", then I<br>> would expect the counter arguments to be more along the lines of<br>"9-9-9<br>> won't work, but 11-11-11 will" (or something to that effect).<br>> <br>> <br>> Jay<br>> <br>> <br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: <a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a><br>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>] On Behalf Of lfalen<br>> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:58 AM<br>> To: Art Deco; Vision 2020<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<br>> <br>> I do not like the 9-9-9 program either, but I do not see how it can be<br>> called regressive. The rich buy more and therefore would pay more<br>taxes.<br>> Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: "Art Deco" <a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a><br>> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 16:43:44 -0700<br>> To: "Vision 2020" <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>> Subject: [Vision2020] Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<br>> <br>>> <br>>> October 13, 2011, 8:30 pm <br>>> Cold Pizza from Herm Cain<br>>> By TIMOTHY EGAN<br>>> <br>>> Timothy Egan on American politics and life, as seen from the West.<br>>> <br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br> http://www.fsr.net<br> mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>