<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); font-size: 12px; color: rgb(85, 85, 85); font-style: italic; line-height: 18px; ">If you go from point A to point B,<br style="outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">With a “d” over “t” greater than “c”,<br style="outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">Then your trip’s just the same<br style="outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">In another man’s frame<br style="outline-style: none; outline-width: initial; outline-color: initial; ">A trip back in time, QED.</span></div><div><br><div>Seeya round town, Moscow.</div><div><br></div><div>Tom Hansen</div><div>Moscow, Idaho</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">"Honest and true,</span></div><div>As the morning star.</div><div>Vote for just two,</div><div>Ament and Lamar."</div></div><div><br>On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>There was a young woman named Bright</span></div><div><span>Who traveled much faster than light</span></div><div><span>She departed today, in a relative way</span></div><div><span>And arrived on the previous night.</span></div><div> </div><div>Ron Force<br>Moscow Idaho USA<br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ted Moffett <<a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Ron Force <<a href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> "<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br><b><span style="font-weight:
bold;">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, October 15, 2011 12:59 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Nutrinos not faster than light?<br></font><br>
"If it stands up, this episode will be laden with irony. Far from<br>breaking Einstein's theory of relatively, the faster-than-light<br>measurement will turn out to be another confirmation of it."<br>------------------<br>This explanation is a disapointment, even if true...<br><br>I was hoping something more exotic would be confirmed, like string<br>theory predictions of other dimensions, as mentioned in the article<br>below. This would not exactly totally refute Einstein's relativity,<br>from my understanding, but would indicate relativity is an incomplete<br>theory to describe the universe, which it probably is...<br><br><a href="http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0922/Neutrino-particle-traveling-faster-than-light-Two-ways-it-could-rewrite-physics">http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2011/0922/Neutrino-particle-traveling-faster-than-light-Two-ways-it-could-rewrite-physics</a><br><br>Neutrino particle traveling faster than light? Two ways it could<br>rewrite physics.<br><br>One example is string theory, which posits a universe of many more<br>dimensions than the four humans
experience.<br><br>"If you have a theory in which there is more than one way to get from<br>A to B, maybe you can have a shortcut and have the appearance of<br>traveling faster than the speed of light," says Stephen Parke, who<br>heads the theoretical physics department at the Fermi National<br>Accelerator Laboratory in Batavia, Ill.<br><br>The alternative? A pillar of modern physics – Einstein's theory of<br>special relativity, in which the speed of light is a particle's<br>absolute speed limit – could take its first serious hit. Perhaps not<br>flat wrong, but only a piece of a more complete picture.<br>------------------------------------------<br>Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett<br><br>On 10/15/11, Ron Force <<a ymailto="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com" href="mailto:rforce2003@yahoo.com">rforce2003@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>> http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/27260/?ref=rss<br>><br>><br>> It's now been three weeks since
the extraordinary news that neutrinos<br>> travelling between France and Italy had been clocked moving faster than<br>> light. The experiment, known as OPERA, found that the particles<br>> produced at CERN near Geneva arrived at the Gran Sasso Laboratory in<br>> Italy some 60 nanoseconds earlier than the speed of light allows.<br>> The result has sent a ripple of excitement through the physics<br>> community. Since then, more than 80 papers have appeared on the arXiv<br>> attempting to debunk or explain the effect. It's fair to say, however,<br>> that the general feeling is that the OPERA team must have overlooked<br>> something.<br>> Today, Ronald van Elburg at the University of Groningen in the<br>> Netherlands makes a convincing argument that he has found the error.<br>> First, let's review the experiment, which is simple in concept: a<br>> measurement of distance and time.<br>> The distance is
straightforward. The location of neutrino production<br>> at CERN is fairly easy to measure using GPS. The position of the Gran<br>> Sasso Laboratory is harder to pin down because it sits under a<br>> kilometre-high mountain. Nevertheless, the OPERA team says it has nailed the<br>> distance of 730 km to within 20 cm or so.<br>> The time of neutrino flight is harder to measure. The OPERA team says it can<br>> accurately gauge the instant when the neutrinos are created and<br>> the instant they are detected using clocks at each end.<br>> But the tricky part is keeping the clocks at either end exactly<br>> synchronised. The team does this using GPS satellites, which each<br>> broadcast a highly accurate time signal from orbit some 20,000km<br>> overhead. That introduces a number of extra complications which the team has<br>> to take into account, such as the time of travel of the GPS signals to the<br>>
ground.<br>> But van Elburg says there is one effect that the OPERA team seems to have<br>> overlooked: the relativistic motion of the GPS clocks.<br>> It's easy to think that the motion of the satellites is irrelevant.<br>> After all, the radio waves carrying the time signal must travel at the<br>> speed of light, regardless of the satellites' speed.<br>> But there is an additional subtlety. Although the speed of light is<br>> does not depend on the the frame of reference, the time of flight does.<br>> In this case, there are two frames of reference: the experiment on the<br>> ground and the clocks in orbit. If these are moving relative to each<br>> other, then this needs to be factored in.<br>> So what is the satellites' motion with respect to the OPERA<br>> experiment? These probes orbit from West to East in a plane inclined at<br>> 55 degrees to the equator. Significantly, that's roughly in line with<br>>
the neutrino flight path. Their relative motion is then easy to<br>> calculate.<br>> So from the point of view of a clock on board a GPS satellite, the<br>> positions of the neutrino source and detector are changing. "From the<br>> perspective of the clock, the detector is moving towards the source and<br>> consequently the distance travelled by the particles as observed from<br>> the clock is shorter," says van Elburg.<br>> By this he means shorter than the distance measured in the reference frame<br>> on the ground.<br>> The OPERA team overlooks this because it thinks of the clocks as on the<br>> ground not in orbit.<br>> How big is this effect? Van Elburg calculates that it should cause<br>> the neutrinos to arrive 32 nanoseconds early. But this must be doubled<br>> because the same error occurs at each end of the experiment. So the<br>> total correction is 64 nanoseconds, almost exactly what the OPERA
team<br>> observes.<br>> That's impressive but it's not to say the problem is done and dusted. Peer<br>> review is an essential part of the scientific process and this<br>> argument must hold its own under scrutiny from the community at large<br>> and the OPERA team in particular.<br>> If it stands up, this episode will be laden with irony. Far from<br>> breaking Einstein's theory of relatively, the faster-than-light<br>> measurement will turn out to be another confirmation of it.<br>> Ref: <a target="_blank" href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685:">arxiv.org/abs/1110.2685:</a> Times Of Flight Between A Source And A<br>> Detector Observed From A GPS Satellite.<br>><br><br><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>=======================================================</span><br><span> List services made available by First Step Internet,</span><br><span> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.</span><br><span> <a href="http://www.fsr.net"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a></span><br><span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></span><br><span>=======================================================</span></div></blockquote></body></html>