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<br>
Are you sure you want the police to start charging for their
services on a case-by-case basis? <br>
<br>
As a property tax payer, I'd rather pay for general police coverage
that way than to have to have a credit card handy when I dial 911.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
On 09/04/2011 09:22 AM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:1315153375.24457.YahooMailNeo@web38105.mail.mud.yahoo.com"
type="cite">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255); font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="right: auto;"><span style="right: auto;">Well, the
good news for both Jay and Paul is that they will get to <span
style="right: auto;" id="misspell-0"><span style="right:
auto;">exercise</span></span> their belief that property
taxpayers should fork out the extra cash to pay for the
extra needed resources by the city to deal with the problems
and expenses caused by Exxon Mobile driving all their <span
id="misspell-1" class="mark">megaloads</span> coming
through Moscow on their next tax bill or rent hike. (Boy was
that a run on sentence or what?)<var id="yui-ie-cursor"></var></span></div>
<div style="right: auto;"><span style="right: auto;"></span> </div>
<div style="right: auto;"><span style="right: auto;">Donovan
Arnold</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif;
font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Arial" size="2">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Jay
Borden <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jborden@datawedge.com"><jborden@datawedge.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Paul
Rumelhart <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a>; Art Deco
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><deco@moscow.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> Moscow
Vision 2020 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><Vision2020@moscow.com></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Saturday, September 3, 2011 11:46 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span id="misspell-3"
class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
</font><br>
<div id="yiv986720237">
<style type="text/css">#yiv986720237 {word-wrap:break-word;background-color:#ffffff;}</style>
<div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">I
fully agree with this... and before I get more of my
opinions stated for me, I'm all about free speech,
passion of a subject and protest as a method of showing
disdain when diplomacy and negotiations fail.<br>
<br>
Knock yourselves out.<br>
<br>
But to pin the tail on Exxon FOR the <span
id="misspell-4" class="mark">protestors</span>...
that's too much.<br>
<br>
Jay<br>
<br>
<font color="#333333"><i><span style="font-size: 14px;"><font
face="sans-serif">Sent via DROID on Verizon
Wireless</font></span></i></font></div>
<br>
<br>
-----Original message-----<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16,
255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><b>From:
</b>Paul Rumelhart <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></a><b><br>
To: </b>Art Deco <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><deco@moscow.com></a><b><br>
Cc: </b>Moscow Vision 2020
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><Vision2020@moscow.com></a><b><br>
Sent: </b>Sat, <span id="misspell-6" class="mark">Sep</span>
3, 2011 19:46:12 GMT+00:00<b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span
id="misspell-7" class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
I fully support the right of people to protest about
this issue. I fully support the idea of civil
disobedience as a method to effect change. I have made
no argument that the protests should be stopped or that
the protesters be billed for the overtime hours worked
by the extra police on duty.<br>
<br>
What I don't agree with is trying to fob the cost of the
protests off onto Exxon/Mobil, who is abiding by the
laws in how it has been moving it's <span
id="misspell-8" class="mark">megaloads</span>. That
simply doesn't seem right to me. Not because they are a
large corporation and my hidden conservative
sensibilities force me to support them, but because they
are doing nothing technically wrong here.<br>
<br>
In your example of the tea <span id="misspell-9"
class="mark">partyers</span> holding up traffic, would
you think it fair if you (as a delayed motorist) were
billed for the costs of the extra police presence simply
because you were delayed by them? Because that's what
billing Exxon/Mobil for the <span id="misspell-10"
class="mark">megaload</span> protests would amount to.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
By the way, it's nice to know that I have list members
that are happy to tell me what it is I'm actually
thinking and what my political views actually are - that
way I don't have to rely upon my own inner dialog to
find that out. Bonus!<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/03/2011 10:36 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>
> What I find appalling in this discussion is the
apparent lack of > historical and contemporary
knowledge of the importance and the > results that
have proceeded from the right of free expression from
> letters to the editor to demonstrations lasting
years and involving > millions of people in this
country.<br>
> Civil rights, environmental issues, anti-war
issues, poverty > issues, pro/anti-abortion issues,
etc allow citizens the right and the > opportunity to
express their opinions and feelings. It should be >
clear to all but the most ignorant and arrogant that
demonstrations in > these areas have influenced
public policy.<br>
> The right of free expression is one of the most
important we have: It > allows us to struggle,
sometimes haltingly and erroneously, towards > the
truth and towards finding values that make this a more
just and > habitable planet.<br>
> We pay taxes for police and allied services, one of
these services is > protect our constitutional
rights, including the right of free > expression.
Except for a very nominal fees for parades and larger
> demonstration permits whose purpose would be to
inform policing > agencies and others that their
services like enforcement, traffic > control, etc may
be needed, I am opposed to requiring citizens to pay
> fees, payments, and/or make other concessions of
any legal kind simply > to exercise a fundamental and
very important constitutional right.<br>
> Dissent (and agreement) has been a very important
part of the history > of this country. I hope we do
not try to stifle this dissent by > making it only
the province of those able to pay well.<br>
> I also find it ironic and hypocritical, but not
surprising, that the > conservatives like <span
id="misspell-11" class="mark">Crabtree</span>, Borden,
and Rumelhart* are the anti-free > expression
advocates on this list [along with pathetic Henry
Johnson > in the /<span id="misspell-13" class="mark">DN</span>/].
[*Rumelhart claims not to be a conservative, but almost
> all his posts here espouse positions touted by
conservatives.]<br>
> I understand the position of the <span
id="misspell-15" class="mark">MPD</span> to take steps
to prevent serious > consequences of <span
id="misspell-16" class="mark">someone's</span>
breaking the law. That is part of their duties.<br>
> It's the little <span id="misspell-17"
class="mark">Napoleans</span>/Hitlers who wish to
stifle dissent by making > the dissenters pay to
express their feelings that pose the greatest >
threat to free expression.<br>
> Two years ago, I sat in traffic on Washington
between 5<span id="misspell-18" class="mark">th</span>
and 4<span id="misspell-19" class="mark">th</span> >
while a large group of tea <span id="misspell-20"
class="mark">partiers</span> crossed Washington, most
of them > not in the crosswalks and hold up traffic a
few minutes. I do not > agree completely with the tea
party's analysis of the nation's > problems and with
their solutions of them -- I think many of them are >
ill-informed and delusional -- but I applaud their
efforts to dissent > in a public manner, even if a
few minor laws were broken. I would > have been very
vocal and combative if someone had suggested that they
> would pay for whatever extra police services might
be needed.<br>
> Having been in on efforts to draft legislation to
make <span id="misspell-21" class="mark">megaload</span>
> <span id="misspell-22" class="mark">permiting</span>
more open, with easier to appeal provisions, to mitigate
the > inconvenience to other highway users and
businesses, and to recover > the cost of issuing the
permits and the costs of usage above normal > being
picked up by the applicants, I can say that intense
lobbying by > big oil and others certainly tilted the
playing field in their favor > and no such
legislation had a chance. Money does talk, sometimes in
> very devious ways, both statewide and in Moscow.<br>
> w.<br>
><br>
> *From:* Jay Borden <br>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011 9:00 PM<br>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart ; Donovan Arnold > <br>
> *Cc:* vision2020 <br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span
id="misspell-24" class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
><br>
> Personally, I find much of this lunacy hilarious.<br>
><br>
> Subscribers here utilize the V20 service to help
organize/update on > protester activity...<br>
><br>
> ... which forces additional police response as a
result of successful > organized protests....<br>
><br>
> ... which causes the very same V20 crowd to blame
Exxon for not > picking up the tab....<br>
><br>
> ...... for the additional police....<br>
><br>
> ... to handle the additional protesters.<br>
><br>
> <br>
><br>
> Bravo folks.... bravo.<br>
><br>
> Jay<br>
><br>
> /Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless<br>
> /<br>
><br>
> -----Original message-----<br>
><br>
> *From: *Paul Rumelhart <br>
> >*<br>
> To: *Donovan Arnold *<br>
> Cc: *vision2020 *<br>
> Sent: *Sat, <span id="misspell-26" class="mark">Sep</span>
3, 2011 01:13:28 GMT+00:00*<br>
> Subject: *Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span
id="misspell-27" class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Here's my take on the "who pays?" issue.
Exxon/Mobil has the<br>
> proper permits, and is abiding by their use on a
public highway.<br>
> If there were no protesters, then there would be no
cops needed on<br>
> extra duty. Forcing Exxon/Mobil to pay is akin to a<br>
> denial-of-service attack in the computer world. All
you need to<br>
> do, if you don't like someone or some company, is
to stage a<br>
> protest outside their place of business. The larger
the better.<br>
> Then the person or the business will have to pay
for their<br>
> protection from the police, regardless of whether
or not they've<br>
> done anything wrong. You might as well get a bunch
of people to<br>
> write letters in protest and then force whoever is
the current<br>
> target of their ire to pay for the paper, the
envelopes, the<br>
> postage, and their time.<br>
><br>
> The only way I can see a justification for
Exxon/Mobil paying for<br>
> the policemen on extra duty is if they specifically
contracted for<br>
> them in order to protect the safety of their
drivers. Which leads<br>
> to the question: who authorized the extra duty for
the police<br>
> officers - the city, the police department,
Exxon/Mobil or some<br>
> other group?<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
> P.S. I snipped Mayor Cheney and Councilman <span
id="misspell-28" class="mark">Lamarr's</span> names
from the<br>
> to: list. I'm sure they get enough spam as it is
and can choose<br>
> whether or not to read the Viz on their own
cognizance.<br>
><br>
> On 09/02/2011 05:27 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>
> > Wayne,<br>
> > It has already been confirmed that Exxon is
not paying the cost<br>
> of the > permit. You can check the donation
records of Idaho<br>
> Republicans if you > don't believe they are
getting something for<br>
> this from Exxon. And the > US Attorney General
office isn't going<br>
> to do anything about it either > or any other
politician because<br>
> they are also owned and operated by > Exxon and
a handful of<br>
> corporations.<br>
> > Donovan Arnold<br>
> ><br>
> > *From:* Wayne Price<br>
> > *To:* Donovan Arnold<br>
> > *Cc:* Bill London ; vision2020 > ; <span
id="misspell-29" class="mark">nancy</span> <span
id="misspell-30" class="mark">chaney</span> ; Tom
Lamar ><br>
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2011 6:15 PM<br>
> > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span
id="misspell-31" class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
> ><br>
> > Donovan,<br>
> ><br>
> > IF you can prove that, contact me off line and
I'll give you a<br>
> point > of contact at the US Attorney's Office
to get in touch with.<br>
> ><br>
> > <span id="misspell-32" class="mark">WMP</span><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On <span id="misspell-33" class="mark">Sep</span>
2, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Wayne,<br>
> >> No, they didn't. They paid the politicians
to change the law<br>
> and make >> the people pay for the cost of
the permit.<br>
> >> Donovan Arnold<br>
> >><br>
> >> *From:* Wayne Price ><br>
> >> *To:* Bill London ><br>
> >> *Cc:* vision2020 > >; <span
id="misspell-34" class="mark">nancy</span> <span
id="misspell-35" class="mark">chaney</span> > >;
Tom Lamar > ><br>
> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2011 5:35 PM<br>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for <span
id="misspell-36" class="mark">Megaload</span> cops?<br>
> >><br>
> >> Bill,<br>
> >><br>
> >> EXXON paid for the permit which gave them
the right to<br>
> transport the >> loads legally.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Wayne<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On <span id="misspell-37" class="mark">Sep</span>
2, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Bill London wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >>> <span id="misspell-38" class="mark">WMP</span>-<br>
> >>> my point exactly<br>
> >>> Exxon wants to play, Exxon should pay<br>
> >>> BL<br>
> >>> *From:* Wayne Price<br>
> >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011
4:21 PM<br>
> >>> *To:* Bill London<br>
> >>> *Cc:* vision2020 ; <span
id="misspell-39" class="mark">nancy</span> <span
id="misspell-40" class="mark">chaney</span>
>>> ; Tom Lamar<br>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays
for <span id="misspell-41" class="mark">Megaload</span>
cops?<br>
> >>> Didn't advocate making them "so
expensive that those rights<br>
> >>> disappear", but what is wrong with you
play, YOU pay?<br>
> >>> <span id="misspell-42" class="mark">WMP</span><br>
> >>> On <span id="misspell-43"
class="mark">Sep</span> 2, 2011, at 4:16 PM, Bill
London wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> <span id="misspell-44"
class="mark">WMP</span>-<br>
> >>>> so your goal is to make freedom of
expression and civil >>>><br>
> disobedience so expensive that those rights
disappear?<br>
> >>>> BL<br>
> >>>> *From:* Wayne Price<br>
> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011
2:05 PM<br>
> >>>> *To:* Bill London<br>
> >>>> *Cc:* vision2020 ; <span
id="misspell-45" class="mark">nancy</span> <span
id="misspell-46" class="mark">chaney</span>
>>>> ; Tom Lamar<br>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who
pays for <span id="misspell-47" class="mark">Megaload</span>
cops?<br>
> >>>> So, some protesters show up and
the local police respond and<br>
> you >>>> want the folks that have the
permits to pay?<br>
> >>>> WHEN the protesters break the
laws, their fines should pay<br>
> for the >>>> disturbances they cause.
Now, who decided some 25<br>
> additional >>>> police officers were
needed?<br>
> >>>> That dog won't hunt!<br>
> >>>> <span id="misspell-48"
class="mark">WMP</span><br>
> >>>> On <span id="misspell-49"
class="mark">Sep</span> 2, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Bill
London wrote:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>>> According to newspaper
reports, about 25 local cops (17<br>
> Moscow, 9 >>>>> county) were at the
latest <span id="misspell-50" class="mark">megaloads</span>
confrontation<br>
> Thurs night in >>>>> downtown
Moscow.<br>
> >>>>> Who is paying for all the
overtime for those officers? I<br>
> called >>>>> David Duke (Moscow
police chief) who said that we<br>
> are. The >>>>> taxpayers. You. Me.
Us. We are spending money to<br>
> help the >>>>> <span
id="misspell-51" class="mark">worldÃ</span>¢â‚¬â„¢s
richest corporation (Exxon/Mobil) get<br>
> their equipment >>>>> delivered on
time.<br>
> >>>>> Thankfully, Duke said that the
city council will be<br>
> discussing >>>>> this issue on
Tuesday (Sept 6) at their regular<br>
> meeting. I hope >>>>> the council
tells Exxon to pay those costs.<br>
> >>>>> BL<br>
> >>>>>
=======================================================<br>
> >>>>> List services made available
by First Step Internet,<br>
> >>>>> serving the communities of the
<span id="misspell-52" class="mark">Palouse</span> since
1994.<br>
> >>>>> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net/"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>/><br>
> >>>>> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> >>>>>
=======================================================<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>
=======================================================<br>
> >> List services made available by First Step
Internet,<br>
> >> serving the communities of the <span
id="misspell-53" class="mark">Palouse</span> since
1994.<br>
> >> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.fsr.net/"
rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>/><br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> >>
=======================================================<br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >
=======================================================<br>
> > List services made available by First Step
Internet,<br>
> > serving the communities of the <span
id="misspell-54" class="mark">Palouse</span> since
1994.<br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
> >
=======================================================<br>
><br>
><br>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>
=======================================================<br>
> List services made available by First Step
Internet,<br>
> serving the communities of the <span
id="misspell-55" class="mark">Palouse</span> since
1994.<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>
=======================================================<br>
><br>
><br>
>
=======================================================<br>
> List services made available by First Step
Internet,<br>
> serving the communities of the <span
id="misspell-56" class="mark">Palouse</span> since
1994.<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow"
target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>
=======================================================<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the <span id="misspell-57"
class="mark">Palouse</span> since 1994.<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
<span id="misspell-58" class="mark">mailto</span>:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"
ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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