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<br>
I fully support the right of people to protest about this issue. I
fully support the idea of civil disobedience as a method to effect
change. I have made no argument that the protests should be stopped
or that the protesters be billed for the overtime hours worked by
the extra police on duty.<br>
<br>
What I don't agree with is trying to fob the cost of the protests
off onto Exxon/Mobil, who is abiding by the laws in how it has been
moving it's megaloads. That simply doesn't seem right to me. Not
because they are a large corporation and my hidden conservative
sensibilities force me to support them, but because they are doing
nothing technically wrong here. <br>
<br>
In your example of the tea partyers holding up traffic, would you
think it fair if you (as a delayed motorist) were billed for the
costs of the extra police presence simply because you were delayed
by them? Because that's what billing Exxon/Mobil for the megaload
protests would amount to.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
By the way, it's nice to know that I have list members that are
happy to tell me what it is I'm actually thinking and what my
political views actually are - that way I don't have to rely upon my
own inner dialog to find that out. Bonus!<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/03/2011 10:36 AM, Art Deco wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:9F1A9D85D93949C89873055F309D9C62@cobra"
type="cite">
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<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">What I find appalling in this
discussion is the apparent lack of historical and contemporary
knowledge of the importance and the results that have
proceeded from the right of free expression from letters to
the editor to demonstrations lasting years and involving
millions of people in this country.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Civil rights, environmental
issues, anti-war issues, poverty issues, pro/anti-abortion
issues, etc allow citizens the right and the opportunity to
express their opinions and feelings. It should be clear to
all but the most ignorant and arrogant that demonstrations in
these areas have influenced public policy.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">The right of free expression is
one of the most important we have: It allows us to struggle,
sometimes haltingly and erroneously, towards the truth and
towards finding values that make this a more just and
habitable planet.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">We pay taxes for police and
allied services, one of these services is protect our
constitutional rights, including the right of free
expression. Except for a very nominal fees for parades and
larger demonstration permits whose purpose would be to inform
policing agencies and others that their services like
enforcement, traffic control, etc may be needed, I am opposed
to requiring citizens to pay fees, payments, and/or make other
concessions of any legal kind simply to exercise a fundamental
and very important constitutional right.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Dissent (and agreement) has
been a very important part of the history of this country. I
hope we do not try to stifle this dissent by making it only
the province of those able to pay well.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I also find it ironic and
hypocritical, but not surprising, that the conservatives like
Crabtree, Borden, and Rumelhart* are the anti-free expression
advocates on this list [along with pathetic Henry Johnson in
the <em>DN</em>]. [*Rumelhart claims not to be a
conservative, but almost all his posts here espouse positions
touted by conservatives.]</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I understand the position of
the MPD to take steps to prevent serious consequences of
someone's breaking the law. That is part of their duties.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">It's the little
Napoleans/Hitlers who wish to stifle dissent by making the
dissenters pay to express their feelings that pose the
greatest threat to free expression.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Two years ago, I sat in traffic
on Washington between 5th and 4th while a large group of tea
partiers crossed Washington, most of them not in the
crosswalks and hold up traffic a few minutes. I do not agree
completely with the tea party's analysis of the nation's
problems and with their solutions of them -- I think many of
them are ill-informed and delusional -- but I applaud their
efforts to dissent in a public manner, even if a few minor
laws were broken. I would have been very vocal and combative
if someone had suggested that they would pay for whatever
extra police services might be needed.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Having been in on efforts to
draft legislation to make megaload permiting more open, with
easier to appeal provisions, to mitigate the inconvenience to
other highway users and businesses, and to recover the cost of
issuing the permits and the costs of usage above normal being
picked up by the applicants, I can say that intense lobbying
by big oil and others certainly tilted the playing field in
their favor and no such legislation had a chance. Money does
talk, sometimes in very devious ways, both statewide and in
Moscow.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">w.</font></div>
<div style="font: 10pt Tahoma;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245,
245);">
<div style=""><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:jborden@datawedge.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:jborden@datawedge.com">Jay Borden</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 02, 2011 9:00 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</a> ; <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">Donovan Arnold</a>
</div>
<div><b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link"
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload
cops?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">Personally,
I find much of this lunacy hilarious.<br>
<br>
Subscribers here utilize the V20 service to help organize/update
on protester activity... <br>
<br>
... which forces additional police response as a result of
successful organized protests....<br>
<br>
... which causes the very same V20 crowd to blame Exxon for not
picking up the tab....<br>
<br>
...... for the additional police.... <br>
<br>
... to handle the additional protesters.<br>
<br>
<slow clap><br>
<br>
Bravo folks.... bravo.<br>
<br>
Jay<br>
<br>
<font color="#333333"><i><span style="font-size: 14px;"><font
face="sans-serif">Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless<br>
</font></span></i></font></div>
<br>
-----Original message-----<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255);
padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">
<div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><b>From:
</b>Paul Rumelhart <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</a>><b><br>
To: </b>Donovan Arnold <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></a><b><br>
Cc: </b>vision2020 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a><b><br>
Sent: </b>Sat, Sep 3, 2011 01:13:28 GMT+00:00<b><br>
Subject: </b>Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
Here's my take on the "who pays?" issue. Exxon/Mobil has the
proper permits, and is abiding by their use on a public highway.
If there were no protesters, then there would be no cops needed
on extra duty. Forcing Exxon/Mobil to pay is akin to a
denial-of-service attack in the computer world. All you need to
do, if you don't like someone or some company, is to stage a
protest outside their place of business. The larger the better.
Then the person or the business will have to pay for their
protection from the police, regardless of whether or not they've
done anything wrong. You might as well get a bunch of people to
write letters in protest and then force whoever is the current
target of their ire to pay for the paper, the envelopes, the
postage, and their time.<br>
<br>
The only way I can see a justification for Exxon/Mobil paying
for the policemen on extra duty is if they specifically
contracted for them in order to protect the safety of their
drivers. Which leads to the question: who authorized the extra
duty for the police officers - the city, the police department,
Exxon/Mobil or some other group?<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
P.S. I snipped Mayor Cheney and Councilman Lamarr's names from
the to: list. I'm sure they get enough spam as it is and can
choose whether or not to read the Viz on their own cognizance.<br>
<br>
On 09/02/2011 05:27 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>
> Wayne,<br>
> It has already been confirmed that Exxon is not paying the
cost of the > permit. You can check the donation records of
Idaho Republicans if you > don't believe they are getting
something for this from Exxon. And the > US Attorney General
office isn't going to do anything about it either > or any
other politician because they are also owned and operated by
> Exxon and a handful of corporations.<br>
> Donovan Arnold<br>
><br>
> *From:* Wayne Price <bear@moscow.com><br>
> *To:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><br>
> *Cc:* Bill London <london@moscow.com>; vision2020 >
<vision2020@moscow.com>; nancy chaney <nchaney@moscow.com>;
Tom Lamar > <tlamar@moscow.com><br>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2011 6:15 PM<br>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for
Megaload cops?<br>
><br>
> Donovan,<br>
><br>
> IF you can prove that, contact me off line and
I'll give you a point > of contact at the US
Attorney's Office to get in touch with.<br>
><br>
> WMP<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sep 2, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Donovan Arnold
wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Wayne,<br>
>> No, they didn't. They paid the politicians
to change the law and make >> the people pay
for the cost of the permit.<br>
>> Donovan Arnold<br>
>><br>
>> *From:* Wayne Price <bear@moscow.com><mailto:bear@moscow.com>><br>
>> *To:* Bill London <london@moscow.com><mailto:london@moscow.com>><br>
>> *Cc:* vision2020 <vision2020@moscow.com>>
<mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>>; nancy
chaney <nchaney@moscow.com>> <mailto:nchaney@moscow.com>>;
Tom Lamar <tlamar@moscow.com>> <mailto:tlamar@moscow.com>><br>
>> *Sent:* Friday,
September 2, 2011 5:35 PM<br>
>> *Subject:* Re:
[Vision2020] who pays for
Megaload cops?<br>
>><br>
>> Bill,<br>
>><br>
>> EXXON paid for the
permit which gave them the right
to transport the >> loads
legally.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Wayne<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 4:29
PM, Bill London wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> WMP-<br>
>>> my point exactly<br>
>>> Exxon wants to
play, Exxon should pay<br>
>>> BL<br>
>>> *From:* Wayne Price
<mailto:bear@moscow.com><br>
>>> *Sent:* Friday,
September 02, 2011 4:21 PM<br>
>>> *To:* Bill London
<mailto:london@moscow.com><br>
>>> *Cc:*
vision2020 <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>;
nancy chaney >>>
<mailto:nchaney@moscow.com>;
Tom Lamar <mailto:tlamar@moscow.com><br>
>>>
*Subject:* Re:
[Vision2020] who pays
for Megaload cops?<br>
>>> Didn't
advocate making them
"so expensive that
those rights
>>>
disappear", but what
is wrong with you
play, YOU pay?<br>
>>> WMP<br>
>>> On Sep 2,
2011, at 4:16 PM, Bill
London wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> WMP-<br>
>>>> so
your goal is to make
freedom of expression
and civil
>>>>
disobedience so
expensive that those
rights disappear?<br>
>>>> BL<br>
>>>>
*From:* Wayne Price <mailto:bear@moscow.com><br>
>>>>
*Sent:* Friday,
September 02, 2011
2:05 PM<br>
>>>>
*To:* Bill London <mailto:london@moscow.com><br>
>>>>
*Cc:* vision2020 <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>;
nancy chaney
>>>>
<mailto:nchaney@moscow.com>;
Tom Lamar <mailto:tlamar@moscow.com><br>
>>>>
*Subject:* Re:
[Vision2020]
who pays for
Megaload cops?<br>
>>>>
So, some
protesters
show up and
the local
police respond
and you
>>>>
want the folks
that have the
permits to
pay?<br>
>>>>
WHEN the
protesters
break the
laws, their
fines should
pay for the
>>>>
disturbances
they cause.
Now, who
decided some
25 additional
>>>>
police
officers were
needed?<br>
>>>>
That dog won't
hunt!<br>
>>>>
WMP<br>
>>>>
On Sep 2,
2011, at 1:38
PM, Bill
London wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>>
According to
newspaper
reports, about
25 local cops
(17 Moscow, 9
>>>>>
county) were
at the latest
megaloads
confrontation
Thurs night in
>>>>>
downtown
Moscow.<br>
>>>>>
Who is paying
for all the
overtime for
those
officers? I
called
>>>>>
David Duke
(Moscow police
chief) who
said that we
are. The
>>>>>
taxpayers.
You. Me. Us.
We are
spending money
to help the
>>>>>
world’s
richest
corporation
(Exxon/Mobil)
get their
equipment
>>>>>
delivered on
time.<br>
>>>>>
Thankfully,
Duke said that
the city
council will
be discussing
>>>>>
this issue on
Tuesday (Sept
6) at their
regular
meeting. I
hope
>>>>>
the council
tells Exxon to
pay those
costs.<br>
>>>>>
BL<br>
>>>>>
=======================================================<br>
>>>>>
List services
made available
by First Step
Internet,<br>
>>>>>
serving the
communities of
the Palouse
since 1994.<br>
>>>>>
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moz-do-not-send="true"
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moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>/><br>
>>>>>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
>>>>>
=======================================================<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>
=======================================================<br>
>> List
services made
available by
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>>
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communities of
the Palouse
since 1994.<br>
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>>
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<mailto:vision2020@moscow.com><br>
>>
=======================================================<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>
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> List
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>
=======================================================<br>
<br>
<br>
</mailto:vision2020@moscow.com></mailto:tlamar@moscow.com></mailto:nchaney@moscow.com></mailto:vision2020@moscow.com></mailto:london@moscow.com></mailto:bear@moscow.com></mailto:tlamar@moscow.com></mailto:nchaney@moscow.com></mailto:vision2020@moscow.com></mailto:london@moscow.com></mailto:bear@moscow.com></mailto:tlamar@moscow.com></tlamar@moscow.com></mailto:nchaney@moscow.com></nchaney@moscow.com></mailto:vision2020@moscow.com></vision2020@moscow.com></mailto:london@moscow.com></london@moscow.com></mailto:bear@moscow.com></bear@moscow.com></tlamar@moscow.com></nchaney@moscow.com></vision2020@moscow.com></london@moscow.com></donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></bear@moscow.com></blockquote>
<p>
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=======================================================
<pre wrap="">
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List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a>
=======================================================</pre>
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