<html><head><style type="text/css">body {word-wrap: break-word; background-color:#ffffff;}</style></head><body><div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 16px">I fully agree with this... and before I get more of my opinions stated for me, I'm all about free speech, passion of a subject and protest as a method of showing disdain when diplomacy and negotiations fail.<br><br>Knock yourselves out.<br><br>But to pin the tail on Exxon FOR the protestors... that's too much.<br><br>Jay<br><br><font color="#333333"><i><span style="font-size: 14px"><font face="sans-serif">Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless</font></span></i></font></div><br><br>-----Original message-----<br><blockquote style="; border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"><div style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px"><b>From: </b>Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com><b><br>To: </b>Art Deco <deco@moscow.com><b><br>Cc: </b>Moscow Vision 2020 <Vision2020@moscow.com><b><br>Sent: </b>Sat, Sep 3, 2011 19:46:12 GMT+00:00<b><br>Subject: </b>Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br><br></div><br>I fully support the right of people to protest about this issue. I fully support the idea of civil disobedience as a method to effect change. I have made no argument that the protests should be stopped or that the protesters be billed for the overtime hours worked by the extra police on duty.<br><br>What I don't agree with is trying to fob the cost of the protests off onto Exxon/Mobil, who is abiding by the laws in how it has been moving it's megaloads. That simply doesn't seem right to me. Not because they are a large corporation and my hidden conservative sensibilities force me to support them, but because they are doing nothing technically wrong here.<br><br>In your example of the tea partyers holding up traffic, would you think it fair if you (as a delayed motorist) were billed for the costs of the extra police presence simply because you were delayed by them? Because that's what billing Exxon/Mobil for the megaload protests would amount to.<br><br>Paul<br><br>By the way, it's nice to know that I have list members that are happy to tell me what it is I'm actually thinking and what my political views actually are - that way I don't have to rely upon my own inner dialog to find that out. Bonus!<br><br><br>On 09/03/2011 10:36 AM, Art Deco wrote:<br>> What I find appalling in this discussion is the apparent lack of > historical and contemporary knowledge of the importance and the > results that have proceeded from the right of free expression from > letters to the editor to demonstrations lasting years and involving > millions of people in this country.<br>> Civil rights, environmental issues, anti-war issues, poverty > issues, pro/anti-abortion issues, etc allow citizens the right and the > opportunity to express their opinions and feelings. It should be > clear to all but the most ignorant and arrogant that demonstrations in > these areas have influenced public policy.<br>> The right of free expression is one of the most important we have: It > allows us to struggle, sometimes haltingly and erroneously, towards > the truth and towards finding values that make this a more just and > habitable planet.<br>> We pay taxes for police and allied services, one of these services is > protect our constitutional rights, including the right of free > expression. Except for a very nominal fees for parades and larger > demonstration permits whose purpose would be to inform policing > agencies and others that their services like enforcement, traffic > control, etc may be needed, I am opposed to requiring citizens to pay > fees, payments, and/or make other concessions of any legal kind simply > to exercise a fundamental and very important constitutional right.<br>> Dissent (and agreement) has been a very important part of the history > of this country. I hope we do not try to stifle this dissent by > making it only the province of those able to pay well.<br>> I also find it ironic and hypocritical, but not surprising, that the > conservatives like Crabtree, Borden, and Rumelhart* are the anti-free > expression advocates on this list [along with pathetic Henry Johnson > in the /DN/]. [*Rumelhart claims not to be a conservative, but almost > all his posts here espouse positions touted by conservatives.]<br>> I understand the position of the MPD to take steps to prevent serious > consequences of someone's breaking the law. That is part of their duties.<br>> It's the little Napoleans/Hitlers who wish to stifle dissent by making > the dissenters pay to express their feelings that pose the greatest > threat to free expression.<br>> Two years ago, I sat in traffic on Washington between 5th and 4th > while a large group of tea partiers crossed Washington, most of them > not in the crosswalks and hold up traffic a few minutes. I do not > agree completely with the tea party's analysis of the nation's > problems and with their solutions of them -- I think many of them are > ill-informed and delusional -- but I applaud their efforts to dissent > in a public manner, even if a few minor laws were broken. I would > have been very vocal and combative if someone had suggested that they > would pay for whatever extra police services might be needed.<br>> Having been in on efforts to draft legislation to make megaload > permiting more open, with easier to appeal provisions, to mitigate the > inconvenience to other highway users and businesses, and to recover > the cost of issuing the permits and the costs of usage above normal > being picked up by the applicants, I can say that intense lobbying by > big oil and others certainly tilted the playing field in their favor > and no such legislation had a chance. Money does talk, sometimes in > very devious ways, both statewide and in Moscow.<br>> w.<br>><br>> *From:* Jay Borden <mailto:jborden@datawedge.com><br>> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011 9:00 PM<br>> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com> ; Donovan Arnold > <mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><br>> *Cc:* vision2020 <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com><br>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>><br>> Personally, I find much of this lunacy hilarious.<br>><br>> Subscribers here utilize the V20 service to help organize/update on > protester activity...<br>><br>> ... which forces additional police response as a result of successful > organized protests....<br>><br>> ... which causes the very same V20 crowd to blame Exxon for not > picking up the tab....<br>><br>> ...... for the additional police....<br>><br>> ... to handle the additional protesters.<br>><br>> <slow clap><br>><br>> Bravo folks.... bravo.<br>><br>> Jay<br>><br>> /Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless<br>> /<br>><br>> -----Original message-----<br>><br>> *From: *Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com<br>> <mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com>>*<br>> To: *Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>*<br>> Cc: *vision2020 <vision2020@moscow.com>*<br>> Sent: *Sat, Sep 3, 2011 01:13:28 GMT+00:00*<br>> Subject: *Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>><br>><br>> Here's my take on the "who pays?" issue. Exxon/Mobil has the<br>> proper permits, and is abiding by their use on a public highway.<br>> If there were no protesters, then there would be no cops needed on<br>> extra duty. Forcing Exxon/Mobil to pay is akin to a<br>> denial-of-service attack in the computer world. All you need to<br>> do, if you don't like someone or some company, is to stage a<br>> protest outside their place of business. The larger the better.<br>> Then the person or the business will have to pay for their<br>> protection from the police, regardless of whether or not they've<br>> done anything wrong. You might as well get a bunch of people to<br>> write letters in protest and then force whoever is the current<br>> target of their ire to pay for the paper, the envelopes, the<br>> postage, and their time.<br>><br>> The only way I can see a justification for Exxon/Mobil paying for<br>> the policemen on extra duty is if they specifically contracted for<br>> them in order to protect the safety of their drivers. Which leads<br>> to the question: who authorized the extra duty for the police<br>> officers - the city, the police department, Exxon/Mobil or some<br>> other group?<br>><br>> Paul<br>><br>> P.S. I snipped Mayor Cheney and Councilman Lamarr's names from the<br>> to: list. I'm sure they get enough spam as it is and can choose<br>> whether or not to read the Viz on their own cognizance.<br>><br>> On 09/02/2011 05:27 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>> > Wayne,<br>> > It has already been confirmed that Exxon is not paying the cost<br>> of the > permit. You can check the donation records of Idaho<br>> Republicans if you > don't believe they are getting something for<br>> this from Exxon. And the > US Attorney General office isn't going<br>> to do anything about it either > or any other politician because<br>> they are also owned and operated by > Exxon and a handful of<br>> corporations.<br>> > Donovan Arnold<br>> ><br>> > *From:* Wayne Price<br>> > *To:* Donovan Arnold<br>> > *Cc:* Bill London ; vision2020 > ; nancy chaney ; Tom Lamar ><br>> > *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2011 6:15 PM<br>> > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>> ><br>> > Donovan,<br>> ><br>> > IF you can prove that, contact me off line and I'll give you a<br>> point > of contact at the US Attorney's Office to get in touch with.<br>> ><br>> > WMP<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Sep 2, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Wayne,<br>> >> No, they didn't. They paid the politicians to change the law<br>> and make >> the people pay for the cost of the permit.<br>> >> Donovan Arnold<br>> >><br>> >> *From:* Wayne Price ><br>> >> *To:* Bill London ><br>> >> *Cc:* vision2020 > >; nancy chaney > >; Tom Lamar > ><br>> >> *Sent:* Friday, September 2, 2011 5:35 PM<br>> >> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>> >><br>> >> Bill,<br>> >><br>> >> EXXON paid for the permit which gave them the right to<br>> transport the >> loads legally.<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> Wayne<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> On Sep 2, 2011, at 4:29 PM, Bill London wrote:<br>> >><br>> >>> WMP-<br>> >>> my point exactly<br>> >>> Exxon wants to play, Exxon should pay<br>> >>> BL<br>> >>> *From:* Wayne Price<br>> >>> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011 4:21 PM<br>> >>> *To:* Bill London<br>> >>> *Cc:* vision2020 ; nancy chaney >>> ; Tom Lamar<br>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>> >>> Didn't advocate making them "so expensive that those rights<br>> >>> disappear", but what is wrong with you play, YOU pay?<br>> >>> WMP<br>> >>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 4:16 PM, Bill London wrote:<br>> >>><br>> >>>> WMP-<br>> >>>> so your goal is to make freedom of expression and civil >>>><br>> disobedience so expensive that those rights disappear?<br>> >>>> BL<br>> >>>> *From:* Wayne Price<br>> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 02, 2011 2:05 PM<br>> >>>> *To:* Bill London<br>> >>>> *Cc:* vision2020 ; nancy chaney >>>> ; Tom Lamar<br>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] who pays for Megaload cops?<br>> >>>> So, some protesters show up and the local police respond and<br>> you >>>> want the folks that have the permits to pay?<br>> >>>> WHEN the protesters break the laws, their fines should pay<br>> for the >>>> disturbances they cause. Now, who decided some 25<br>> additional >>>> police officers were needed?<br>> >>>> That dog won't hunt!<br>> >>>> WMP<br>> >>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Bill London wrote:<br>> >>>><br>> >>>>> According to newspaper reports, about 25 local cops (17<br>> Moscow, 9 >>>>> county) were at the latest megaloads confrontation<br>> Thurs night in >>>>> downtown Moscow.<br>> >>>>> Who is paying for all the overtime for those officers? I<br>> called >>>>> David Duke (Moscow police chief) who said that we<br>> are. The >>>>> taxpayers. You. Me. Us. We are spending money to<br>> help the >>>>> world’s richest corporation (Exxon/Mobil) get<br>> their equipment >>>>> delivered on time.<br>> >>>>> Thankfully, Duke said that the city council will be<br>> discussing >>>>> this issue on Tuesday (Sept 6) at their regular<br>> meeting. I hope >>>>> the council tells Exxon to pay those costs.<br>> >>>>> BL<br>> >>>>> =======================================================<br>> >>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> >>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <<a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>/><br>> >>>>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >>>>> =======================================================<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <<a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a>/><br>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>><br>><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br>><br>><br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br><br><br></blockquote></body></html>