<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Paul,</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN>prefer</SPAN></SPAN> to have all the available information and facts. I <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-1><SPAN>prefer</SPAN></SPAN> that we hope for the best but plan for the worst. I think that people will, especially <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-2><SPAN>politicians</SPAN></SPAN>, lawyers, and greedy corporate types, always <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-3><SPAN>exploit</SPAN></SPAN> anything real or unreal regarding peoples' insecurity and safety to maximize power, control, and profits. It is an unfortunate but a dark reality of human nature. But it cuts both ways, for and against. <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-4><SPAN>Exploitation</SPAN></SPAN> on all sides by all sides. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">However, I don't think the vast majority of scientists and experts in this <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-5><SPAN>field</SPAN></SPAN> are trying to <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-6><SPAN>deceive</SPAN></SPAN> and shut down conversation, research, or confuse people with disinformation or create <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-7><SPAN>panic</SPAN></SPAN>. On the contrary, I think they want total awareness of what they know or suspect. I think they <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-8><SPAN>believe</SPAN></SPAN> they have a general ethical obligation to inform the public of potential environmental <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-9><SPAN>consequences</SPAN></SPAN> of their actions as individuals and as a society. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Of course they don't know everything, and their <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-10><SPAN>knowledge</SPAN></SPAN>, <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-11><SPAN>research</SPAN></SPAN> and ability to predict is limited and will lack some accuracies. However, that doesn't mean they should withhold information from the public and not do what they can to inform the public. I consider this akin to a fire department not releasing information about a fire heading toward town because they don't know the exact place and path or the extent a fire will burn. Their obligation is to tell the public what they believe based on the <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-12><SPAN>information</SPAN></SPAN> they have and their expertise. Sure, shouting fire might lead to some panic,<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR> unneeded work, and moving, etc, <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"
id=misspell-13><SPAN>exploitation</SPAN></SPAN> by looters as people leave their houses <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-14><SPAN>unnecessarily</SPAN></SPAN>, but they are still obligated to inform. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">We have two choices, either ignore or follow what the experts advise us to do. Ignore it and we risk the <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-15><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">consequences</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>. I think the risks of ignoring what they tell use to do and sacrifice don't <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-16><SPAN>outweigh</SPAN></SPAN> following it. My odds of getting into an car accident are about .0001%, yet I still wear a seat belt. Because the cost and <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-17><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-1><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">inconvenience</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> of wearing a seat belt is far less than cost of not to me. Same with the air that I breathe. Even if the actions requested for me turn out to be almost totally bogus, the costs are little to the .000001% chance my air will be less safely
breathable in the distant future.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Your beef is with the hype and spin that is <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-18><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-2><SPAN>inherently</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> connected to any important subject. Not with <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-19><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-3><SPAN>scientists</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>. It is just a cost of making sure everyone knows how serious the situation is. </SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan Arnold</SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Vision 2020 <Vision2020@moscow.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, September 3, 2011 8:52 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Al Gore thinks climate "deniers" are akin to racists from the Old South<BR></FONT><BR>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118><BR style="RIGHT: auto">I don't actually believe that the earth isn't warming. See, that's the problem with trying to sweep this conversation under the rug <SPAN id=misspell-21><SPAN id=misspell-5><SPAN id=misspell-1>ala</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> racism. I'm just skeptical that they actually know how much warming is due to mankind because I haven't seen any evidence that they have a handle on the natural processes involved. I am also skeptical that they know enough about the possible feedback mechanisms to have any right to claim that the results will be catastrophic.<BR><BR>Anyway, there's plenty here that could be discussed, but not if we bury our heads in the sand and poo-poo the conversations because someone is bringing up a subject that people have worked really hard to make into a political statement, and are now trying to make into an unassailable truth.<BR><BR>Doesn't it matter to you at all
that they play fast and loose with the numbers sometimes to add more shock value? Wouldn't you rather they just told you what they actually knew?<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>On 09/02/2011 03:38 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
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<DIV><SPAN>Paul,</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Yes, because your "fact" doesn't support your claim that global warming isn't <SPAN id=yiv558595118misspell-0><SPAN>occurring</SPAN></SPAN>. The <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-1><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">preponderance</SPAN></SPAN> of empirical evidence and the overwhelming majority of experts believe that global warming is <SPAN id=yiv558595118misspell-2><SPAN>occurring</SPAN></SPAN>. If you have evidence to show that the Earth is not warming or can <SPAN id=yiv558595118misspell-3><SPAN>convince</SPAN></SPAN> a majority of geologists<VAR id=yiv558595118yui-ie-cursor></VAR>, <SPAN id=yiv558595118misspell-4><SPAN>meteorologists</SPAN></SPAN>, and weather and climate field related experts they are wrong, then I think your claim can be supported. Pointing out a misplaced decimal point or misquote from a supporter of stopping global warming doesn't logically support your
claim the Earth isn't warming.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan Arnold</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Paul Rumelhart <A class=yiv558595118moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Donovan Arnold <A class=yiv558595118moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com></A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Vision 2020 <A class=yiv558595118moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><Vision2020@moscow.com></A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, September 2, 2011 7:49 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Al Gore thinks climate "deniers" are akin to racists from the Old South<BR></FONT><BR>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118>Does it matter if the person "denying global warming" has actual facts to back them up?<BR><BR>For example, when I correct someone yet again on this list who is overstating the amount of sea level rise that the <SPAN id=yiv558595118misspell-6><SPAN id=misspell-23><SPAN id=misspell-7><SPAN id=misspell-3>IPCC</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> expects as their worst-case scenario, do I sound ignorant? Should everyone turn away and pretend I didn't say anything at all?<BR><BR>Don't mind me, I'm just trying to probe the outer edges of their reality-distortion field.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>On 09/01/2011 08:48 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I do think someone sounds ignorant and uneducated when they deny global warming and humans having a negative impact on the Earth's environment. I also think someone sounds ignorant and uneducated about people when they say racist, sexist, homophobic things. So, yes, in that respect, I think the two are similar. Other than this, no, there are no similarities. </SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Donovan Arnold</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Paul Rumelhart <A class=yiv558595118moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"><godshatter@yahoo.com></A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Vision 2020 <A class=yiv558595118moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><Vision2020@moscow.com></A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:14 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [Vision2020] Al Gore thinks climate "deniers" are akin to racists from the Old South<BR></FONT><BR>I'd like to get some vision2020 members opinions on this. Here is an article from the <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"
id=yiv558595118misspell-1 class=yiv558595118mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-8><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-25><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-9><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-5>Huffington</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> Post where in an interview Al Gore talks about "winning the conversation" with climate deniers which refers to how racist comments were basically shunned in everyday conversations after the civil rights movement occurred.<BR><BR>Here is the article: <A href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/gore-climate-change-deniers_n_940802.html" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/30/gore-climate-change-deniers_n_940802.html</A><BR><BR>Do you think it's legitimate to treat talk of skepticism of anthropogenic global warming in the same way that we do racist language today?<BR><BR>Should I, as a climate skeptic, be told that "we don't talk about that here in polite
conversation" when I have a question about something related to the science of climate change?<BR><BR>Just curious if I sound like <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-2 class=yiv558595118mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-9><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-26><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-10><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-6>everyone's</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> uncle that everybody seems to have that embarrasses you every time you go out in public with him.<BR><VAR id=yiv558595118yui-ie-cursor></VAR><BR>Is that really a healthy attitude to have about scientific skepticism?<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR>=======================================================<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>serving the communities of the <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-3 class=yiv558595118mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-10><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"
id=misspell-27><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-11><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-7>Palouse</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> since 1994.<BR> <A href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.fsr.net</A><BR> <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-4 class=yiv558595118mark><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=yiv558595118misspell-11><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-28><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-12><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-8>mailto</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>:<A style="RIGHT: auto" href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>=======================================================<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>