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<DIV><FONT size=2>Joe,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I just can't follow your argument, nor your thought
experiment. I suspect that we are using different definitions of "free
will" and "determinism."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let's start with the word "determinism" in an effort to
clarify. [Note: "God" in the following means "alleged
God."]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Suppose you had a perfect die throwing machine, a machine that
tossed a die in a completely controlled micro-environment. This
machine was set to hold and to toss the die in the exact same way each
time. </FONT><FONT size=2>Barring some anomaly in what in what are
called for the sake of expediency the "laws of nature" -- in this case physics
-- the result will always be the same. </FONT><FONT size=2>The outcome is
"determined." Given the constancy of the "laws of physics", no other
outcome is possible. Betting on the outcome would be a sure bet; a bet
that is never lost. The outcome is complete predictable without a chance
of error.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If, however, the "laws of physics" were not constant, but were
subject to an occasional anomaly, then there would be some randomness, and there
would not be any sure bet. There would be errors in
predictions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>In short, I am using the word "determined" to mean always
completely predicable without error or chance of error.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Given the above, the issue of determinism and freewill in the
context of the Problem of Evil can then be characterized thusly:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A. Did God when creating the universe,
plan it down to the very last detail and then executed that plan exactly?
Did God impose upon all things a "law of all things" from the beginning such
that everything in the universe always acts like the die in the perfect die
throwing machine -- all outcomes, events, etc were/are completely
predictable (known) to God. If so, that is what I mean by "determinism" in
the context of the Problem of Evil. There is no outcome that God, being
omniscient, did not know (predict) would happen. There is no
randomness in the system.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>B. Did God when creating the universe
leave an element of randomness in its plan of the universe, and
did not attend to every last detail, randomness say in the form of human
"freewill," so that not all outcomes were completely predictable (known) by
God.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the later, then there are random events of which
God would not have been cognizant of at the moment of creation or before they
occurred, and therefore God would not be omniscient at the moment of creation or
at anytime before any of these random events occur.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Simpler: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A. Did God plan everything, and being
omnipotent, everything happens that way, and being omniscient, God knows exactly
what will happen, and hence everything is determined (predictable by God),
despite appearances?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>or </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>B. Did God plan almost everything, but left
an element of chance/randomness in its plan in the form of the freewill of
humankind, and thus God could not predict everything from the moment of
creation, and hence God not omniscient?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Simpler yet (like the old Clairol ads):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>A. Does He know</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>or </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>B. doesn't He know?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If A, then all is determined, regardless of the conscious
feeling of choice experienced by humankind.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If B, then freewill exists, but God is not omniscient having
chosen to give up complete predictability.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>What is very important in discussing this issue is to
distinguish between there being actual freewill and there being the appearance
of free will. There is little doubt that many people believe they are
exercising free will. That belief may or may not be true. The more
we learn about human behavior, the more determined (and predictable) it
becomes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>God, being omnipotent, could certainly create a universe where
people believe they were exercising free choice, but in fact, their actions were
completely determined (predictable) by God at the point of creation.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>w.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 17, 2011 2:26 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Response to
Joe, Donovan [More]</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I
can agree with much of this argument, Wayne, but not the claims about free
will.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">For
instance, you write: “If A, then all actions of humankind were part of God's
creation plan, and thus <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">all</B> human
actions were predetermined/preprogrammed including acts of disobedience from
the beginning according to God's plan, and hence, freewill cannot and does not
exist, and thus evil is totally and completely the creation and the fault of
God, and therefore God is not omnibenevolent.”</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Maybe
the best way to make my point is that I deny the slide from “determinism” to
“predetermined” to “preprogrammed.” Or if I accept the slide, I deny that
being preprogrammed is incompatible with being free and morally responsible
for one's actions. In other words, I don't find determinism to be particularly
problematic for free will -- at least not any more problematic than
indeterminism.<BR></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><BR></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Here
is a thought experiment. Suppose you get to "rollback" time and relive a
choice 100 times over. You choose the black iPod over the white iPod and you
get to make this same choice 99 times over again. But each time the situation
is exactly the same. Each time you have the same reasons, the same
information, etc. What would you choose?<BR></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">If
you choose the black iPod 100 times out of 100 choices, it seems like no
choice at all. What you did was determined and not up to you. That is the
problem of free will and determinism.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Suppose
instead you choose the black iPod 50 times and the white iPod the other 50
times. Then your choice was random and, for that reason, no choice at all.
This is the problem of luck, the problem of free will and
indeterminism.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">And
what set of probabilities would satisfy you? 90-10? </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">75-25</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">?
51-49? This is the problem of free will. Free will is an enigma whether
determinism is true or false.</SPAN></P><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Art Deco <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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class=gmail_quote>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thank you, Joe for pointing my out
unintended use of "omnificent" and "omnificence" instead of
"omniscient" and "omniscience."<SPAN> </SPAN>This mistake
originally started with a lapse of not carefully looking at spell
check alternatives.<SPAN> </SPAN>I have replaced correct
versions of the initial post and the response to Donovan's initial
reply below.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I hope the following will address your
questions.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The discussion of the Problem of Evil
that has occurred was not intended to show that some superior being, a
possible creator of the universe, or at least some God does not
exists.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The scope of the discussion was much more
limited.<SPAN> </SPAN>The intention was, and I hope, did show
that the following assertion leads to a contradiction:<SPAN>
</SPAN>"The universe was created by an omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent God."<SPAN> </SPAN>And therefore such an
assertion is false.<SPAN> </SPAN>As you know, the belief in such
a God with these traits is dogmatically asserted by many religious
sects including the Catholic Church and our own local
cult.<SPAN> </SPAN>In shorter terms the demonstration was that
"The existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God who
created the universe is a logical impossibility."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">It is possible, though at this point in
time, clearly undemonstrated, that the universe was created by some
being, call it God, who was<B> not</B> omnipotent, omniscient, and,
omnibenevolent.<SPAN> </SPAN>For example, one possibility is
that of a God as described by Alfred North Whitehead.<SPAN>
</SPAN>That particular God was not quite up to the entire task, though
it tried its best, and therefore humankind needs to help it achieve a
moral earth.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Each argument purporting to show the
existence of some God(s) or other must be examined on its own merits
including looking at the evidence for included or assumed knowledge
claims, looking for logical consistency, looking for consistency with
known probabilities, etc.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">But on the issue of whether freewill and
combined omnipotent/omniscient God are possible in the universe as we
now know it, I can only repeat and augment a little the simply stated
argument I made in response to Donovan.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Assuming an omnipotent God had a plan and
from that plan created the universe exactly according to that plan,
then:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Simply put, at the point of creation,
either:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God knew that humankind would disobey it, and knew all other
actions of humankind that would occur.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Or</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God did not know that humankind would disobey it, and did not
know some of the actions of humankind that would occur.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If A, then all actions of humankind were
part of God's creation plan, and thus <B>all</B> human actions were
predetermined/preprogrammed including acts of disobedience from the
beginning according to God's plan, and hence, freewill cannot and does
not exist, and thus evil is totally and completely the creation and
the fault of God, and therefore God is not omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If B, God lacked specific knowledge of
the outcomes of his creation plan at the point of creation, and
therefore God is not omniscient – there is something that God did not
know.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Freewill (vs. determinism) is possibly
compatible with the assertion that God is <B>not</B> omnipotent and/or
omniscient.<SPAN> </SPAN>But whether freewill exists in reality
would be difficult to prove or disprove -- no one has yet to do
so.<SPAN> </SPAN>Certainly there is there appearance of
freewill, but as you know with the advancement of the psychological
sciences, particularly the work of B. F. Skinner and followers, and
the advancement of the biological sciences, particularly the work of
geneticists, the amount of freedom of choice available to humankind
when carefully examined, appears to have shrunk and continues to
shrink.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You posit:<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"God could create a world where
determinism is false (to say otherwise means he's not omnipotent)," or
rephrased:<SPAN> </SPAN>"Could God create a world where
determinism is false (to say otherwise means he's not
omnipotent)?"</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is asking whether an omnipotent,
omniscient God could create a world where that God itself was not
omniscient, or asking if God could negate his own
omniscience.<SPAN> </SPAN>This argument analogous to the
argument in the form of a question: <SPAN> </SPAN>"Could God
create a stone so heavy that it could not lift it?"<SPAN>
</SPAN>When a question contains a contradiction, then there is no
possible comprehensible answer except that the question calls for the
existence of an impossible state of reality.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Although omniscience is used as a
separate property in the discussion of the Problem of Evil, in really
omniscience is a sub-property of omnipotence -- the power of knowing
everything.<SPAN> </SPAN>So then the question
becomes:<SPAN> </SPAN>"Could an omnipotent being destroy its own
omnipotence?"<SPAN> </SPAN>This is another example of a question
containing or leading to a contradiction, and thus without a possible
comprehensible answer except that the question calls for the existence
of an impossible state of reality.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The question of whether causation is
transitive or not, or stated as "Is the universe a system of
inexorably related (call the relation cause) between everything in it
or not?" is not relevant to the issue.<SPAN> </SPAN>Either an
omnipotent God knew exactly what it was doing when it created the
universe or not.<SPAN> </SPAN>If so, then everything resulting
from his plan of creation is determined, and if not, then God lacks
omniscience.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I am at a loss to understand your fourth
point.<SPAN> </SPAN>In the context of those who believe in an
omniscient God, the word "omniscient" means: <SPAN> </SPAN>"At
all times past, present and future God knows everything, past,
present, and future.<SPAN> </SPAN>There is nothing (no bit of
knowledge, fact, fancy, or feeling) that God does not know or did not
know."<SPAN> </SPAN>In my discussion that is the meaning I have
taken.<SPAN> </SPAN>How can there be a lesser kind of
omniscience than full and complete knowledge?<SPAN> </SPAN>"God
is omniscient and knows everything except what will happen next
Tuesday" would be a contradiction.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There are very interesting questions
arising from the assertion that an omniscient being exists or could
even exist.<SPAN> </SPAN>How could such a being be sure of its
knowledge?<SPAN> </SPAN>Where and how is this knowledge
stored?<SPAN> </SPAN>What does it mean to say that some being
knows everything? <SPAN> </SPAN>Etc.<SPAN> </SPAN>I have
not addressed these issues.<SPAN> </SPAN>I have only addressed
the problems that arise when it is asserted along with other
statements that "At all times past, present and future God knows
everything, past, present, and future.<SPAN> </SPAN>There is
nothing (no bit of knowledge, fact, fancy, or feeling) that God does
not know or did not know."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Further, I make no claim that the
traditional usage of the words "omnipotent," "omniscient," and
"omnibenevolent" make sense or describe possible states of
reality.<SPAN> </SPAN>I am merely taking the words as they are
used by certain believers and apologists then showing that such
linguistic usage leads to a contradiction.<SPAN> </SPAN>I
suspect that asserting "God is omnipotent" makes about the same amount
of sense that asserting that "The square root of jelly vulcanizes
justice" does.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target=_blank>Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target=_blank>Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 16, 2011 10:36
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Response to
Joe, Donovan</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>My own view is that the problem of evil is unsolvable, an enigma.
Thus, I don't think you can that God does not exist, given the existence
of evil, either.<BR><BR>Thanks, Wayne! A few quick questions and points.
<BR><BR>1/ Why think that you can settle one of the perennial
philosophical debates (whether or not God exists) by assuming the answer
to another perennial philosophical debate (whether free will is compatible
with determinism)? <BR><BR>2/ Neither omniscience nor predetermination
wrecks free will. It is predetermined that you will leave some of your
clothes on while purchasing your next set of groceries. I am certain that
you will. Is it unfree? No, I think you freely do so.<BR><BR>3/ Why must
an omnipotent, omniscient (omnificent = unlimited in creative power), and
fully benevolent being be the CAUSE of everything? (Note, I'm not denying
that God is the cause of everything. I take it that that is the issue in
(2). Here I'm questioning this view.) First, God could create a world
where determinism is false (to say otherwise means he's not omnipotent).
Second, causation is not transitive. It might be true that something I
wrote caused you to write one of the sentences below but it doesn't follow
that I wrote the sentence below.<BR><BR>4/ You write: <FONT size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><SPAN></SPAN>If there is something that is
not predetermined (unknown to or unpredicted by God), but somehow left to
chance at the moment of creation, then God is not omnificent [or
omniscient].<BR><BR>Suppose "omniscience" means "someone knows everything
that is true," that states of affairs make things true, and that the
future is open: undetermined and unrealized. God might know everything
there is to know -- he might not miss any of the facts -- yet still not
know everything (all that was, is, or will be true).<BR><BR>More
later!<BR></SPAN></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" border=0 cellSpacing=0
cellPadding=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8; BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; WIDTH: 7.65in; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8; BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Donovan writes:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">"I just think you have too
many false assumptions and false definitions of words in your
arguments."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">However, no specific examples of false
assumptions or false definitions (which is taken to mean words used
in other than their ordinary established manner) are cited even
though the arguments have been presented in a numbered sequence
making them easy to cite and to discuss.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, Donovan's above assertion has not been shown to
have any merit, but has the appearance of a rhetorical trick used
when one side of a debate does not have a plausible answer to the
arguments presented by the other.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Next, Donovan cites one of Zeno's
paradoxes to show that anything can be proven by false assumptions
and definitions.<SPAN> </SPAN>However, there is no explanation
or illustration of how the arguments presented in the discussion of
the Problem of Evil are structured in a similar manner to Zeno's
argument that was given.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Since no evidence of false assumptions
and definitions has been presented, and no demonstrations of
specific invalid or fallacious arguments have been made, these two
claims are without even attempted demonstrated merit.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Moving on, Donovan then
writes:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">"Evil, is to disobey God's
command. It is not a specific act in and of itself. God created
people with the ability to decide if they wish to obey or not obey.
He can do that because He is all powerful. Humans create evil by
doing what God has given them the ability to do, disobey God. God
gave humans this ability because He wants people to freely choose to
be with Him, not be forced to. Just like me and you don't want to be
around just people that are forced to be.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">God always does the most
benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey
Him. If God prevented people from killing or hurting each other He
would be doing something far less benevolent then anything else by
eliminating our ability to obey and be with Him after we
die."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Consider:<SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">"Evil, is to disobey God's command. It is not a
specific act in and of itself."</SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN>This is an
example of the fallacy [<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition</A>]
of offering a persuasive definition:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"A persuasive definition is a form of
definition which purports to describe the 'true' or 'commonly
accepted' meaning of a term, while in reality stipulating an
uncommon or altered use, usually to support an argument for some
view, or to create or alter rights, duties or crimes. … Persuasive
definitions commonly appear in controversial topics such as
politics, sex, and religion, as participants in emotionally-charged
exchanges will sometimes become more concerned about swaying people
to one side or another than expressing the unbiased
facts."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Clearly, a persuasive definition is
given for "evil" in above argument offered by Donovan.<SPAN>
</SPAN>For most people, the real evil of the rape and murder of
young children is found in the harm, pain, degradation, and other
life long consequences suffered by the victims, their families, and
associates, not that some alleged God was disobeyed.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There are many other problems with the
above argument, including that it is full of knowledge claims about
the traits of some alleged God which appear impossible to verify or
even to give any cogent evidence for.<SPAN> </SPAN>Once it
asserted that God is omnipotent, then it follows that God can do
anything, which includes deceiving humankind without any fear of
detection, therefore all knowledge claims about any other traits of
God cannot be given any convincing or reliable evidence.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Only those claims which contain contradictions can be
conclusively refuted.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The Problem of Evil shows that
asserting the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent
God leads to a contradiction, and thus one or more of the premises
of the argument (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence) must be
false.<SPAN> </SPAN>Elementary logic.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The above argument given by Donovan
asserts:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">"God created people with
the ability to decide if they wish to obey or not obey. He can do
that because He is all powerful. Humans create evil by doing what
God has given them the ability to do, disobey God. God gave humans
this ability because He wants people to freely choose to be with
Him, not be forced to…"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This claim does not refute the
conclusions drawn from the Problem of Evil, but, in fact, supports
them.<SPAN> </SPAN>This is the claim of the existence of
'freewill' or 'freedom to choose' to explain the existence of
evil.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">To see the fallaciousness of this claim
of freewill in Donovan's assertions masquerading as an argument,
consider <B>the fundamental question</B> engendered by the
assumption that some alleged omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent
God created the universe:<SPAN> </SPAN>"<B>Did God know
exactly what it was doing at the moment of creation</B> <B>of the
universe</B>?"</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If God knew <B>exactly what all the
consequences/outcomes of his act of creation were at the moment of
creation</B>,<B> </B>including whether humankind would "choose" to
disobey him or not, then these so-called "free choices" by humankind
were totally and completely predetermined by God's creation plan and
execution thereof, and therefore, the freedom to choose to do
anything not originally planned by God does not exist,
freewill/freedom to disobey God is an illusion/delusion, and thus
any argument using freewill or freedom of choice to justify the
existence of evil is erroneous without any hope of
redemption.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">On the other hand, if God did not know
whether humankind would choose to disobey him or not, then God had
gaps in his knowledge at the moment of creation, and thus is not
omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Hence, the conclusions drawn from the
Problem of Evil withstand Donovan's perhaps quite emotionally
satisfying for some, but transparently fallacious attempt to explain
evil, among other things, away.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Simply put, at the point of creation,
either:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God knew that humankind would disobey it.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: 0.5in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Or</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God did not know that humankind would disobey it.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If A, then all actions of humankind
were part of God's creation plan, and thus all human actions were
predetermined/preprogrammed including acts of disobedience from the
beginning, and hence, freewill cannot and does not exist, and thus
evil is totally and completely the creation and the fault of God,
and therefore God is not omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If B, God lacked specific knowledge of
the outcomes of his creation plan at the point of creation, and
therefore God is not omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Points of Interest and
Corollaries</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Ironically and similarly, the Bible,
allegedly the Word of this omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent
God, offers many illustrations that God, in fact, is not omnipotent,
omniscient, and omnibenevolent, but prone to error, intemperate,
childish, irritable, petulant, and vengeful.<SPAN>
</SPAN>These illustrations include the terminal incident in the
Garden of Eden and the advent of Jesus.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Did God know at the moment of creation
that those ingrates, Adam and the particularly fickle Eve, would
choose to disobey God's big command?<SPAN> </SPAN>If God knew,
then Adam and Eve's actions were predetermined – they had no real
choice in deciding to chomp the apple, but were acting in a
preprogrammed manner.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God didn't know what
these naked, thankless rotters would do, then Got is not
omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The Garden of Eden incident also raises
extremely serious, if not fatal, objections to the assertion that
God is omnibenevolent.<SPAN> </SPAN>God punishes all
succeeding generations of humankind with innumerable instances of
pain and suffering because two people disobeyed him by performing
the heinous act of eating an apple or the symbolic act of attempting
to acquire knowledge.<SPAN> </SPAN>Punishing billions of
people for one misdeed of someone else, a deed over which the
billions punished had no control or choice, is good?<SPAN>
</SPAN>Sorry Charley, but this is next to impossible to accept as a
sane assertion, let alone a plausible one.<SPAN> </SPAN>Most
of us find it abhorrent when only one person is punished for some
evil they did not commit, let alone billions.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Why was it necessary for Christ to
appear to save humankind from their folly?<SPAN> </SPAN>Did
God know at the moment of creation that people were going to turn
out to be such rascally miscreants?<SPAN> </SPAN>If not, God
is not omniscient.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God is, in fact, omniscient
and knew exactly and completely all the outcomes of his creation
plan, then all the sins and debaucheries of humankind were
predetermined at the point of creation, and regardless of any claim
of freewill, such evils were inexorably part of God's creation plan,
pure and simple.<SPAN> </SPAN>And yet most of humankind is to
suffer eternal punishment for their actions which were completely
determined by God's creation plan.<SPAN> </SPAN>And this is
omnibenevolence?<SPAN> </SPAN>Wonderful.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Both the alleged incident in Garden of
Eden and the advent of the alleged Savior Jesus also raise serious,
if not fatal objections to the claim of God's
omnipotence.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God had to intervene at least at
these two points of its creation, thus have to try to alter its
original plan due to unanticipated events, errors, and bumblings,
how can God be omnipotent?<SPAN> </SPAN>Omnipotent beings, by
definition, cannot make mistakes.<SPAN> </SPAN>And if God
screwed up in the creation of parts of the universe (humankind),
what else has it screwed up?<SPAN> </SPAN>Can it deliver
without error on any of the many fantasies of some alleged
heaven?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Donovan's argument further
asserts:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">"God always does the most
benevolent thing He can without eliminating our ability to disobey
Him."</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So killing millions of people,
sometimes in very torturous, grim, and disgusting ways via natural
disasters is "t<SPAN style="COLOR: blue">he most benevolent thing He
can without eliminating our ability to disobey Him,</SPAN>" and is
good, not evil?<SPAN> </SPAN>God is doing us wondrous, great,
colossal favors by causing natural disasters and murdering
millions?<SPAN> </SPAN>Get real.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If God cannot prevent natural
disasters, events like earthquakes, volcanoes, and tidal waves, over
which humankind has no control or choice, events that have killed
millions in horrible ways and deprived the living of their presence,
God is not omnipotent.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God can prevent these
natural disasters, God is not omnibenevolent, unless God considers
these gruesome, painful deaths to be good, not evil, something that
most of us do not.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God considers these events
to be good and not evil, what kinds of surprises await humankind in
some alleged heaven, a place of allegedly infinite good?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Consider also the following
assertion:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0.5in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; COLOR: blue">"God gave humans this
ability </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">[freewill]<SPAN
style="COLOR: blue"> because He wants people to freely choose to be
with Him, not be forced to."</SPAN></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Poor God.<SPAN> </SPAN>God is
lonely and insecure, and thus needs our praise, reassurance, and
company.<SPAN> </SPAN>If so, then God is incomplete, has
vulnerable human traits, and thus cannot be said to be omnipotent,
but dependent on some lowly beings to satisfy its cravings for
attention, love, and approbation.<SPAN> </SPAN>Further, as
illustrated by characterizations in the Bible, God is tetchy,
petulant, spiteful, and vengeful to the point of inflicting immense
and widespread pain, suffering, and sorrow on those that displease
it.<SPAN> </SPAN>These cannot be the traits of an omnipotent,
omnibenevolent, or even greatly forgiving being, but are the traits
generally found in maladjusted, egotistical, power hungry humans who
cannot brook, and are not open and mentally healthy enough to brook
dissent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Does it make sense that some alleged
being, a being with the alleged ability to create the universe with
all of its complexities and to keep it operating, is so vulnerable
and incomplete that it craves humankind's praise and approval, and
then tests the strength of that approval by making damningly evil
many things it knowingly and intentionally programmed as natural
parts of humankind's biological, psychological, and social
makeup?<SPAN> </SPAN>Such a view is really a damning insult to
this alleged God intelligence, powers, and goodness by its
believers.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So failing to show any false
assumptions and definitions, failing to show that any fallacious
arguments have been offered, and offering as an alternative an
argument which also proves that God cannot be omnipotent,
omniscient, and omnibenevolent, we await the next transparent
attempt to deny reality.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">[Footnote:<SPAN> </SPAN>In
addition to authoring the present sacrilegious discussion of the
Problem of Evil, I have been reprimanded for calling God, the
alleged creator of the universe, "it" instead of "He."<SPAN>
</SPAN>I am unaware of any credible argument demonstrating that the
alleged creator of the universe has male genitals.]</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> <FONT
size=2>_______________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT size=2></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The Problem of Evil:<SPAN>
</SPAN>One Formulation</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Did some allegedly all-powerful
(omnipotent), all-knowing (omniscient), perfectly good
(omnibenevolent) God Create the Universe?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Let's assume so for the sake of
argument.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If this omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent God created the universe, then God is the
cause/determiner of everything which happened/happens/will happen or
exists in the universe because if this God is omniscient, it had
exact foreknowledge of everything that would happen as a result of
this omnipotent creation from the moment of creation.<SPAN>
</SPAN>To say otherwise would be to contradict God's omniscience and
omnipotence.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Hence, <B>everything</B> that happens
in the universe was predetermined by God at the moment of
creation.<SPAN> </SPAN>This includes <B>all acts of
humankind</B>, and excludes completely the possibility of actual
freewill/freedom to choose between performing good and/or evil acts,
but not does not exclude the possibility of the fallacious
appearance to humankind that freewill exists.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Simply stated:<SPAN> </SPAN>If
there is something that is not predetermined (unknown to or
unpredicted by God), but somehow left to chance at the moment of
creation, then God is not omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If all is predetermined, the appearance
that freewill exists is like a Hollywood set – possibly convincing
to look at, but with naught behind it.<SPAN> </SPAN>To say
there is a meaningful, left-to-chance choice is to say that God did
not either cause/determine and/or know what the result of that
choice would be – a denial of God's omnipotence and/or
omniscience.<SPAN> </SPAN>If there is real choice (something
God left to chance), then there is not predetermination, and thus a
gap in God's knowledge, and therefore God would not be omnipotent
and/or omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If God is omnibenevolent (perfectly
good), then <B>everything within God's control that happens,
including all human acts is good, not evil</B>:<SPAN>
</SPAN>God would not knowingly and intentionally perform any evil
act, any act that would result in evil, or even allow anything evil
in itself to exist.<SPAN> </SPAN>Nothing evil (the opposite of
good) can exist if God is omnibenevolent and in total, complete
control and the determiner of all that happens in the
universe.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">For example, the acts of Jeffrey Dahmer
where he tortured and murdered at least seventeen persons (<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer</A>) were
good, not evil acts.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Nor were the acts of Joseph Duncan evil
acts, who among other crimes murdered three adults who were in the
company of eight-year old Shasta Groene, abducted her and her nine
year old brother Dylan, then raped, sexually tortured, and murdered
Dylan in view of Shasta (<A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III</A>).<SPAN>
</SPAN>But such acts, having been initially knowingly and
intentionally determined by an omnipotent, omniscient,
omnibenevolent God, were good, not evil acts.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Therefore, the belief by humankind that
evil exists is in grievous error, if God is omnipotent, omniscient,
and omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">The Problem of Evil occurs because many
persons believe that evil acts actually exist – the acts of Dahmer
and Duncan would be called evil by many.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Asserting that these acts were evil (not good) and were
knowingly predetermined/caused by an omnibenevolent God, who could
have done otherwise, creates an obvious contradiction between God's
alleged omnipotence and omniscience on one hand, and God's alleged
omnibenevolence on the other.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If evil acts exist, then:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God, if omnibenevolent, could not have foreseen nor prevented
such acts or God would have prevented them, hence God is not
omnipotent and/or omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God could not be omnibenevolent in that God knowingly and
intentionally caused/determined evil acts to occur despite that if
God were omnipotent and omniscient, and thus the determiner of
everything, could have prevented such acts.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">C.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, <B>God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent</B>.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Once the premises are accepted that
this alleged God is omnipotent, omniscient, and thus this God
created and determined the universe as it now exists and everything
it contains and all occurrences within it, then it follows that God,
given all the infinite choices open to it:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Knowingly and willfully chose to create/determine the
universe in the way it now exactly exists, and</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>This God knew exactly everything (perfectly, to the last
watermelon seed) what would occur as a result of its
creation.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">C.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, <B>Evil is a knowing and intentional creation of
God</B>.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There is no wiggle room here, despite
centuries of theological attempts to solve this
disturbing-to-the-faithful dilemma by various transparent
ruses.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If God is omnipotent and omniscient,
then it knowingly and intentionally caused/determined all things
that happened in the universe from the point of creation onward
including the acts of Dahmer and Duncan.<SPAN> </SPAN>To
attempt to say otherwise is to deny either the omnipotence,
omniscience, or both of God.<SPAN> </SPAN>This would be in
effect saying:<SPAN> </SPAN>"Poor God.<SPAN> </SPAN>God
didn't quite know or quite care enough about what it was doing
and/or the consequences of its act of creation, and consequently
bumbled a bit.<SPAN> </SPAN>Nice try."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">To further assert that evil does not
exist is to deny the basic reality of humankind's experience and
pervert the established use of language beyond credibility, and
thereby call certain acts not evil, thus good, that most of us find
extremely and horridly evil.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">There are many interesting corollaries
to the consequences of the Problem of Evil – that God cannot be
omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">One is that the Bible (allegedly the
Word of an alleged God), for example, acknowledges/asserts that evil
acts do occur, and, in fact, asserts that God punishes and will
eternally punish some people for their evil acts.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">{According to the Bible didn't Jesus
show up because something went radically wrong with God's creation –
the super-prevalence of evil?<SPAN> </SPAN>(Isn't this
assertion about Jesus an admittance by the Christian followers of
God that God admits that it screwed up and needed to find a way to
unscrew things [which doesn't appear to have worked either, in fact
seems to have been counterproductive] another contradiction to the
assertion of God's alleged omnipotence?)}</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If this God is the omnipotent,
omniscient creator of the universe and determiner of everything in
it, then God is the determiner of all the evil acts and occurrences
within it.<SPAN> </SPAN>Punishing someone for acts not even
remotely within their control hardly constitutes
omnibenevolence.<SPAN> </SPAN>Citing that punishing seven
subsequent generations of progeny for the acts of one individual as
an example of omnibenevolence indicates that such citers/believers
are in greatly need of the services of competent mental health
professionals and/or that their understanding of very elementary
logic is egregiously defective, perhaps beyond repair.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Another problem that arises is the
promise of and the nature of an afterlife.<SPAN> </SPAN>If
evil does not exist, especially in the eyes of an alleged
omnibenevolent God, then the good (not evil) acts of Duncan and
Dahmer would not be barred from heaven, but would be
allowed.<SPAN> </SPAN>The horrors experienced by Shasta Groene
could be re-experienced by her and others for an eternity to provide
a paradise for the Dahmers and Duncans.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">If evil exists, then God cannot be
omnipotent and/or omniscient.<SPAN> </SPAN>Hence, how can this
God or any of its followers be confident that God can deliver on its
promises of heaven and what will occur there, or even the
correctness of its choices about whom will be housed
there?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Another problem with the assertion of
omnipotence and omniscience of some alleged God is that it makes
both entreating and laudatory prayer meaningless except as phatic
communication.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Why would an omnipotent, omniscient God
ever change its intentions about the operation of its creation, the
universe, when entreated by a much-less-wiser-than-God member of
humankind?<SPAN> </SPAN>To do so would be a clear indication
that God had made a misjudgment/error during the act of creation,
and thus a contradiction of God's omnipotence and
omniscience.<SPAN> </SPAN>Such an entreating prayer would be a
gross insult to God, insinuating that God is not running things as
it should and should heed the exhortations or requests of a much
less knowledgeable human.<SPAN> </SPAN>Such entreating prayers
are indirectly, but clearly telling God that he lacks omnipotence,
omniscience, and omnibenevolence and that God better pay attention
so that it gets things right.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">To say that God needs or wants praise
or approval for his act of creation and its consequences is
attributing to God a fundamental weakness of humankind.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If God is omnipotent, and thus completely and totally
confident and completely assured about all its acts, why would it
crave, need, or relish the approval and reassurance of one small,
clearly not omnipotent or omniscient being of its
creation?</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A fourth problem that arises is the
problem of faith in God's alleged trait of benevolence [or any other
alleged trait].<SPAN> </SPAN>If God is omnipotent (or even
greatly wiser than humankind) then God could easily deceive
humankind about its (God's) alleged goodness.<SPAN> </SPAN>To
say that God could not deceive humankind would be to assert that
humankind, or at least the believers among them, think that they are
smarter than God and have him correctly pegged, clearly a
contradiction to God's omnipotence.<SPAN> </SPAN>It also
should be clear that asserting the omnipotence of some alleged God
makes any other knowledge claims about any other of this God's
alleged traits or intentions unverifiable in any way since this God
could be The Great Omnipotent Deceiver, and therefore humankind
would not be in a position to verify any other claims about God, or
to refute them except by finding contradictions in such.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">So that responses to the above, if
desired, can be discussed without irrelevant side trips and
emotional pleas and confessions of faith, below is the main gist of
the above formulation broken down by premises, inferences, and
conclusions.<SPAN> </SPAN>Those disagreeing can then state by
number which they disagree with and why.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">In what follows, if not explicitly
stated, "God" should be read "alleged God."</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Main Initial Premises.</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">1.<SPAN>
</SPAN>There is a God.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">2.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God is omnipotent (all powerful, can do anything it chooses,
etc).</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">3.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God is omniscient (knows <B>all/everything</B> there is to
know, past, present, and future including the
consequences/determinants of all its acts and all the conscious and
unconscious thoughts and feelings of every human).</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">4.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God is omnibenevolent (<B>perfectly</B> good, abhors and
would not permit anything evil (clearly not good) ever to exist or
to occur, if it could prevent it.)</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">5.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God knowingly and intentionally created the universe as we
know it and exactly as it is.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Beginning of Inferences</SPAN></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">6.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If this God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent,
and created the universe, then God is the cause/determiner of
everything that happens as a result of its all-knowing and
intentional act of creation from the moment of that
creation.<SPAN> </SPAN>God was/is/will be in complete control
and the determiner of everything at all times.<SPAN> </SPAN>To
assert there is something that God is not in complete control of
(something somehow left to chance) is to deny either God's
omnipotence and/or omniscience.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">7.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Since God is omniscient, God had exact foreknowledge of
everything that would occur/be determined as a result of its
omnipotent act of creation.<SPAN> </SPAN>To say God didn't
know exactly to a tee what would occur or be determined as a result
of his creation would be to contradict God's omniscience.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">8.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Since God is omnipotent and omniscient, <B>everything</B>
that happens in the universe was knowingly and intentionally
predetermined from the moment of creation.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, all future acts of humankind were predetermined at
moment of creation.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">9.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If all acts of humankind are predetermined, then there can be
no freedom of choice or so-called free will.<SPAN> </SPAN>If
there are acts of which God did not have foreknowledge of, then God
is not omniscient.<SPAN> </SPAN>If there are acts of which God
is not in control of or the determiner of but are somehow left to
chance, then God is not omnipotent.<SPAN> </SPAN>Therefore,
the appearance of freewill is an illusion/delusion if God is
omnipotent and omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">10.<SPAN> </SPAN>Any
act that occurs in the universe was either predetermined at the
moment of creation or not.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God is omnipotent
and omniscient then God intentionally and knowingly
created/determined the universe to be the way it now
exists.<SPAN> </SPAN>If there is something, like a human act
which is not predetermined, but has been somehow left to chance (an
unknown outcome), then God is not omniscient.<SPAN> </SPAN>If
there is real choice, and thus an indeterminate gap in God's
knowledge, there is not predetermination, and thus God is not
omniscient. If there was no gap in God's knowledge/foreknowledge at
the moment of creation, then all acts are therefore knowingly and
intentionally predetermined by God.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">11.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore all acts of humankind are predetermined and occur
regardless of the appearance of choice/freewill, if God is
omnipotent and omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">12.<SPAN> </SPAN>If
God is omnibenevolent (<B>perfectly</B> good), then every act that
God has control over or determines would be good and not
evil.<SPAN> </SPAN>God would not knowingly and/or
intentionally perform or allow the performance of any act that was
not good, that is, evil.<SPAN> </SPAN>If God is omnibenevolent
(<B>perfectly</B> good), and thus totally and completely abhorrent
to and completely opposed to evil, and this omnipotent, omniscient
God was in complete control and the determiner of everything that
happens in the universe from the moment of creation, then nothing
evil would or could ever exist in the universe.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">13.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Since God is omnipotent, omniscient, and thus is in a
position to unequivocally impose its omnibenevolence, then <B>evil
does not and cannot not exist</B>.<SPAN> </SPAN>Hence, no acts
by humankind are evil, but <B>all such acts are good</B>.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">14.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Since evil cannot exist if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent, the belief of humankind holding that evil exists is
in grievous error.<SPAN> </SPAN>Evil cannot exist if God is
omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">15.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, the acts of child torturers, rapists, and
murderers are not evil, but good acts.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">16.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Further, since evil cannot exist, the acts called evil in the
Bible, the alleged word of God, are not evil, but good.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore the Bible is in error, and could not have been
authored, even by proxy, by an omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent God.<SPAN> </SPAN>Therefore, the Bible is not
the Word of this God, but a grand, but not evil deception of God
since there is no evil – everything is good.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">17.<SPAN> </SPAN>The
Problem of Evil occurs because many persons believe that evil
exists, for example, the acts of child molesters.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Since these acts of child molestation would not have occurred
unless they were knowingly and intentionally predetermined by an
omnipotent, omniscient God, then God cannot be omnibenevolent if
<B>child molestation</B>, for example, <B>is evil</B>.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">18.<SPAN> </SPAN>If
evil acts exist, then:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God, if omnibenevolent (<B>perfectly</B> good), could not
have foreseen nor prevented such acts or God would have, hence God
is not omnipotent and/or omniscient.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>God is not omnibenevolent in that God knowingly and
intentionally caused/causes evil acts to occur since God, if
omnipotent and omniscient, could have prevented such acts of which
he was the determiner.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">C.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Therefore, <B>God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent</B>.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">19.<SPAN> </SPAN>Once
the premises are accepted asserting that this alleged God is
omnipotent, omniscient, that evil exists, and this God knowingly and
intentionally created the universe and everything in it, then it
follows that God, given all the infinite choices open to
it:</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">A.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Knowingly and willfully chose to create the universe in the
way it now exactly exists, and</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 1in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">B.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Hence, this God knew exactly everything (perfectly, to the
last watermelon seed) what would occur as a result of its creation
at the moment of creation, and <B>evil</B>, as we now know it <B>is
God's creation</B>, and thus clearly demonstrates that God is not
omnibenevolent.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">20.<SPAN> </SPAN>We
are left with the unavoidable, but unpalatable-to-some conclusion
that God cannot be omnipotent, omniscient, and
omnibenevolent.<SPAN> </SPAN>We are then left with a host of
problems created by that this clearly demonstrated insufficiency of
God, if God as presently conceived by humankind, exists at
all.</SPAN></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></B> </P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P></P>
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