<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Joe,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You asked a question with a faulty premise, I answered it using the most simplistic explanation I could in how God is not responsible. It is clear based on your response you didn't understand what I was saying. Sorry you don't understand it. Perhaps you can take it to a fellow professor and have them explain it to you. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Sun, 5/15/11, Joe Campbell <I><philosopher.joe@gmail.com></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from lmtribune.com<BR>To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>Cc: "vision2020@moscow.com" <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>Date: Sunday, May 15, 2011, 7:06 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=yiv1689913051>You're turning my question into a statement. I'm not charging God with anything. I asked YOU a question.<BR><BR>You agree that in a particular case of a drowning child, you would be required to help the victim. Are you depriving the victim of his free will by doing so? I don't see how. In this case, that suggestion seems silly. And clearly the child's life would not be rendered "meaningless" by your assistance. So I fail to see how anything below explains why God doesn't save every drowning child, why he doesn't save every victim of every natural disaster. Further, I don't think there is a rational explanation available.<BR><BR>Again, my only point is that getting God off the hook, once questions about the existence of evil are raised, is no easy task. Talk about "free will" and "meaning" doesn't really help. It is more that, once the big philosophical guns come out people's eyes gloss over and they stop asking questions.
<BR><BR>This is exactly why I think religious matters should be kept out of the law (such as religious based laws against gay and lesbian marriage). The law should deal with matters of proof and evidence and no religious belief can be <SPAN><SPAN>proven</SPAN></SPAN> true. This applies to the beliefs of the atheist as well as the theist.<BR><BR>
<DIV class=yiv1689913051gmail_quote>On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=yiv1689913051gmail_quote>
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<DIV>"So how is an omnipotent being not responsible for every drowning?" Joe Campbell</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Nobody is morally or ethically responsible to prevent a bad event if their action knowingly would result in something worse. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Your statement charges God with the personal responsibility to save every victim of human and natural events. The consequences of doing so would render every life meaningless if all free will and ability to disobey Him was taken away. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The only way to do away with every victim of wrong doing would be to either completely control every action of every person, or to eliminate every human. So God would have to do more harm to do the good which you demand of Him, which would contradict your intent. Hence, the only way for good to always be done is to freely follow God. This is the way I believe God designed it. Nobody is morally or ethically responsible to prevent a bad event if their action would knowingly result in something worse. </DIV>
<DIV class=yiv1689913051im>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 5/14/11, Joe Campbell <I><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv1689913051im><BR>From: Joe Campbell <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <SPAN>lmtribune</SPAN>.com<BR>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>><BR></DIV>Cc: "<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 12:34 PM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=yiv1689913051h5><BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>So how is an omnipotent being not responsible for every drowning?<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>On May 14, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Donovan Arnold <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>Joe,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Considering that I am trained to save that baby, and I did nothing and refused, I would be charged with a felony. So, yes, very much responsible. Unless circumstances prevented me from attempting to do so. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 5/14/11, Joe Campbell <I><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Joe Campbell <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <SPAN>lmtribune</SPAN>.com<BR>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Cc: <A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Date: Saturday, May 14, 2011, 6:48 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV>Suppose a baby was drowning two feet from you and you do nothing to save it. Aren't you at least partly blameworthy for his death?<BR><BR>
<DIV>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV>Dr. Joe,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It is a false dilemma to say it is either God's or the victim's fault in a death, injury, or economic ruin. </DIV>
<DIV>It can be, and is almost always, the fault of humanity or group of humans. It takes a lot of people to decide, approve, build and move people into homes built in a flood plain, on a fault line, or at the base of a volcano long before a family actually moves into the house for whatever reason. Usually, it comes down to lots of people acting recklessly or selfishly. Either way it isn't God's fault and almost never 100% the fault of the victim. Few people would actually die from natural disasters if it were not for humanitiy's greed, carelessness, lack of respect for nature or not following God by loving your neighbor.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm not trying to defend God from humanity's irrational judgement, as you jump to conclude, I am just trying to demonstrate to God that some of us are not so judgemential and irrational in are thinking as those that blame God for the consequences of humanity's greed which He clearly warned us against since the beginning. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 5/13/11, Joe Campbell <I><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Joe Campbell <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>>
<DIV><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>lmtribune.com</A><BR></DIV>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Cc: "Vision 2020" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 4:01 PM
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>
<DIV>The whole problem with this kind of answer is that it opens the gates for further questions. Try solving the problem of evil for tougher cases, like folks who lost their jobs in the recent recession. Or are you trying to say that ALL those who lost their jobs in the recession or who lost their lives in recent natural disasters "had it coming," given their foolish decisions about where to live, where to work, etc.? Did they ALL deserve to get fired? Did they ALL deserve to die? Has everyone who ever died a horrible death, or had something evil happen to them, deserved it? If I said the same thing about your "innocent children" I'm sure you'd be equally offended.<BR><BR>I'm no atheist but it is safe to say that the "justification of evil" defense does not solve the problem of evil. It will not get God off the hook for everything. Free will only goes so far. Once you bring up these inadequate stories to try to defend God -- who needs no defense -- you
just make the matter worse. Better to jump on the faith wagon BEFORE giving the inadequate defense.<BR><BR>
<DIV>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Donovan Arnold <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
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<DIV><FONT color=#000000>Wayne Fox quotes Ron Force,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>"Could they sue God if it rains?", </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000>and responds;</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#bf005f size=2 face=Verdana>"Based on all the misery this alleged all-powerful God has allegedly caused, this matter would be heard in Miniscule Claims Court."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#bf005f face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>God sure is a bastard for building homes in places that have been flood plains for thousands of years and making people live there, and for putting tall easily collapsible buildings on million year old fault lines and lots of people walking in, around, and underneath them, and most of all, for not having murderers burst into flames for slaughtering innocent people while declaring it is in His name. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Donovan Arnold</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 5/12/11, Art Deco <I><<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>deco@moscow.com</A>></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Art Deco <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>deco@moscow.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>lmtribune.com</A><BR>To: "Vision 2020" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 3:42 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>Ron Force writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>"Could they sue God if it rains?"<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>Based on all the misery this alleged all-powerful God has allegedly caused, this matter would be heard in Miniscule Claims Court.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>w.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=rforce2003@yahoo.com href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Ron Force</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=thansen@moscow.com href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>Tom Hansen</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:29 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>lmtribune.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>The separate college commencement ceremonies were done away with under President White, to address the non-attendance problem at the general. Now all students walk across the stage to pick up diplomas, PhDs get hoods, etc. so if Mom wants a picture, Junior (or Jane) has to get up early on Saturday. The colleges have receptions following general commencement (all indoors). </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Law still clings to their separate ceremony, which will be at 3, outdoors (Could they sue God if it rains)?<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ron Force<BR>Moscow Idaho USA<BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Tom Hansen <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Ron Force <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=rforce2003@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>rforce2003@yahoo.com</A>>; "<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>" <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A
href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:11 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <SPAN><SPAN>lmtribune</SPAN></SPAN>.com<BR></FONT><BR>There are two commencements . . . one general commencement . . . and a<BR>commencement for each college.<BR><BR>If this grad class is similar to my grad class of '96, they'll be too dang<BR>hungover to attend the general commencement and (almost) sleep through the<BR>college commencement (especially those grads whose last names start with<BR>"A").<BR><BR>Ah, yes, the thrill and pride of the graduation walk.<BR><BR>Tom Hansen<BR>Moscow, Idaho<BR>UI '96<BR><BR><BR>On Thu, May 12, 2011 2:04 pm, Ron Force wrote:<BR>> I was told that several thousand plastic ponchos will be available.<BR>>
Anyway, the severe weather isn't forecast until early afternoon, so the<BR>> speakers have an incentive to be brief...<BR>><BR>> Â <BR>> Ron Force<BR>> Moscow Idaho USA<BR>><BR>><BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Sam Scripter <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MoscowSam@charter.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MoscowSam@charter.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank>MoscowSam@charter.net</A>><BR>> To: Moscow Vision 2020 <<A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>>; <A href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=borderh@googlegroups.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A
href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=borderh@googlegroups.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank>borderh@googlegroups.com</A><BR>> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:54 PM<BR>> Subject: [Vision2020] Fwd: Breaking news from <A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank></A><A href="http://lmtribune.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>lmtribune.com</A><BR>><BR>><BR>> Breaking News from the Lewiston Tribune Oh, my!<BR>><BR>> This is terrible for UI Commencement, OUTDOORS!<BR>><BR>> Does anyone on the Viz know if UI has a Plan B?<BR>><BR>> Sam I am in Moscow . . .<BR>><BR>><BR>> Breaking News from the Lewiston Tribune<BR>> Having trouble reading this email? View the web<BR>> version<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> May<BR>> 12, 2011<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> BREAKING<BR>> NEWS<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> National<BR>>
Weather Service predicting severe storms on Saturday<BR>><BR>> share<BR>> The<BR>> National Weather Service is predicting heavy rainfall Saturday and<BR>> advising of the possibility of severe thunderstorms that have the<BR>> potential to spawn tornadoes.<BR>><BR>> John<BR>> Livingston, a meteorologist with the Spokane office of the weather<BR>> service, said warm and moist conditions could cause thunderstorms to<BR>> sweep eastward anywhere from the Camas Prairie and Blue Mountains to<BR>> the southern Palouse and St. Maries.<BR>><BR>> read<BR>> more ››<BR>><BR>><BR>> SUBSCRIBE / BLOGS / VIDEOS / PHOTOS / NWMARKET<BR>><BR>> Today's<BR>> Top Stories<BR>><BR>> · Kitty<BR>> caught loitering<BR>><BR>> · His<BR>> destiny began with a tumor<BR>><BR>> · Weather<BR>> puts farmers a month behind<BR>><BR>> · Boston<BR>> roadblock
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