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<DIV><FONT size=2>I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called
Godwin's Rule by showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous attempts
at rational argument with the individuals invoking the rule have been basically
futile.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever invokes the Nazis first loses
the argument." </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Godwin's Rule basically says it is fallacious to compare
anything of less than horrendous consequences (if that) to the
Nazis.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Wrong.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>When A is compared to B, that means there is at least
<STRONG>one</STRONG> property P in which A and B are similar. For
example: Rotten apples are like rotten eggs. The similar property
between rotten apples and rotten eggs is that both can be used
to throw at corrupt politicians.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>One property that the Nazi regime had was making
unilateral decisions from the highest level without consultation or discussion
with those whom the decisions adversely impacted. That property is shared
by Governor Otter in the megaload issue. Hence, the reference to
Nazis would be correctly applied.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no
property P in which the compared objects share or are similar. There may
be other problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the comparison
property is shared or similar, that is not the problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Like many others on this forum, I find that some of those who
continually boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of free expression use
Godwin like tactics to attempt to quell meaningful discussion and
dissent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I again recommend the short, sweet, but hugely informative
book <EM>Logic</EM> by Wesley Salmon to those who are logically impaired.
It can be downloaded in parts from the web.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let me repeat: <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>Nazis
are not the problem we are facing</FONT></STRONG>:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor Otter, who
then dictates the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT on matters where
there are <STRONG>two major areas</STRONG> of great public impact and concern
and where the secret deal prevented serious discussion and
consideration:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>1.</STRONG> Impacts of this secret
deal on citizens adversely impacted by the decision in many,
many ways.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG>2.</STRONG> Impacts of enabling a
project with huge adverse impacts, some of them fatal, on many people, the
environment, and the U.S. economy given the majority interests in the tar sands
projects held by China, no friend of the environment, public health, or of the
sense of fairness in international trade, patent, or currency
regulations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I again express my disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow
public officials not having the knowledge, insight into their own powers, and
the guts to oppose this charade, not only because of the two areas of concern
expressed above, but also because of the public policy considerations of
allowing citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal
about which they were prevented from participating in an open,
meaningful discussion and debate over matters of serious importance to
them. So much for the party of freedom and respect for the
individual.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Adding: if conversations with people I meet while in Moscow
are any indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely
shared.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><BR>Wayne A. Fox<BR>1009 Karen Lane<BR>PO Box 9421<BR>Moscow, ID
83843</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>208
882-7975<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=godshatter@yahoo.com
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">Paul Rumelhart</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Questions About
Semi-Megaloads in Moscow</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Give me a break. Does the interweb "make the rules"? No. The
rules began with Aristotle and the Stoics and they were perfected by folks
like Boole and Frege. As Wayne clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which
was made by you, Paul, not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt
to draw folks away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument
or point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first place
-- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!<BR><BR>I now return you to the real
issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...<BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><SPAN>I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh interwebs if
you think it's stupid.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>I'm not really trying to win any sort of debate here,
myself. Just trying to impart a little perspective. Use at your
own risk. That's why Godwin's Law is remarkably effective,
actually. It's a good indicator that rationality has left the building
and that further debate is only useful for the lulz.<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>Paul<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV
style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT
size=2 face=Arial>
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Joe Campbell <<A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"
target=_blank>philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Tom Hansen <<A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"
target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com"
target=_blank>godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>; Saundra Lund <<A
href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm"
target=_blank>v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</A>>; Vision 2020 <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM
<DIV class=im><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR></DIV></FONT><BR>
<DIV>I made this point but Paul is not listening. There was no
comparison.<BR><BR>The claim that "the first person in an argument who
compares the other side to the Nazis loses the debate" is just stupid. Why
not just make the winner the person with the best haircut? The person with
the worst argument loses the debate.<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom Hansen <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>thansen@moscow.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart and to the
rest of you<BR>lacking any sense of comprehension.<BR><BR>My reference to
Nazis was NOT aimed at Wayne Krauss.<BR><BR>My comment, word for word, . .
.<BR>
<DIV><BR>"Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95
or<BR>Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on
somebody<BR>else's door."<BR><BR></DIV>The comparison I clearly drew was
between "megaloads weren't anywhere near<BR>US95 or Moscow" and Nazis
knocking "on somebody else's door."<BR><BR>If you really do feel like
dragging this dead horse around with you, how<BR>about taking to your
buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<BR><BR>'Nuff said.<BR><BR>Now, if you will
excuse me, I have four hours of Moscow Megaload Meeting<BR>videos to edit
and post.<BR><BR>Tom Hansen<BR>Moscow, Idaho<BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Fri, May 13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart
wrote:<BR>><BR>> Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All
I need to know about him<BR>> is that he pressed his first wife for
divorce while she was in the<BR>> hospital recovering from
cancer-related surgery, not to mention<BR>> committing adultery while
criticizing Clinton for doing the same thing<BR>> during the Monica
Lewinski scandal.<BR>><BR>> Anyway, the idea is that the first
person in an argument who compares<BR>> the other side to the Nazis
loses the debate.<BR>><BR>> Paul<BR>><BR>> On 05/13/2011 12:00
AM, Saundra Lund wrote:<BR>>> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that
term.<BR>>><BR>>> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has
been invoked for the<BR>>> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in
articles or speeches"), then do<BR>>> you agree that hyperbolic
"Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept<BR>>> since you called
it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<BR>>> Gingrich
than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint
Augustine:<BR>>> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue"
response)?<BR>>><BR>>> Just wonderin'. .
.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Saundra Lund<BR>>> Moscow,
ID<BR>>><BR>>> The only thing necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good people to<BR>>> do nothing.<BR>>> ~ Edmund
Burke<BR>>><BR>>> ***** Original material contained herein is
Copyright 2011 through life<BR>>> plus 70 years, Saundra Lund.
Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<BR>>> reproduce outside the
Vision 2020 forum without the express written<BR>>> permission of
the author.*****<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> From: Paul Rumelhart [mailto:<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>godshatter@yahoo.com</A>]<BR>>> Sent: Wednesday, May
11, 2011 6:34 PM<BR>>> To: Tom Hansen<BR>>> Cc: Saundra Lund;
'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in
Moscow<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> Wow, you've just Godwin'd this
thread by comparing this issue to the<BR></DIV></DIV>>> Nazis. See
<A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law"
target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</A>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>>><BR>>> I'm not looking forward to having
to wait an hour for these guys to move<BR>>> a semi-megaload down
the highway, but let's try to keep some perspective<BR>>> here.
We're talking traffic delays, possible road damage, possible<BR>>>
electricity outages, and one giant megacorp putting a little more
money<BR>>> in their giant coffers than they otherwise would.
Besides, if we "win",<BR>>> they'll just find a more expensive way
of moving these things and force<BR>>> the extra cost on to the
consumers.<BR>>><BR>>> I'm not saying you're not fighting the
good fight, let's just keep it in<BR>>>
perspective.<BR>>><BR>>> Paul<BR>>><BR>>> On
05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen wrote:<BR>>>> Excusing Krauss
because the megaloads weren't anywhere near US95 or<BR>>>> Moscow
yet is like justifying the Nazis as long as they knock on<BR>>>>
somebody else's door.<BR>>><BR>>>
<snip><BR>>><BR>>><BR>><BR>>
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<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist
expects it to<BR>changeand the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR><BR> -
Unknown<BR>
<DIV>
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