<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.19046">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>And do you know who drank milk?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hitler.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>w.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 13, 2011 11:27 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Godwin's
Rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Wayne --<BR><BR>You know who tried to ban use of Godwin's
Rule?<BR><BR>Hitler.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR><BR>On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:11 PM,
Art Deco <<A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>> I hope we can quell the fallacious use of the so-called
Godwin's Rule by<BR>> showing why it is a fallacy. [Although previous
attempts at rational<BR>> argument with the individuals invoking the rule
have been basically futile.]<BR>><BR>> Godwin's Rule states: "Whoever
invokes the Nazis first loses the argument."<BR>><BR>> Godwin's Rule
basically says it is fallacious to compare anything of less<BR>> than
horrendous consequences (if that) to the Nazis.<BR>><BR>>
Wrong.<BR>><BR>> When A is compared to B, that means there is at least
one property P in<BR>> which A and B are similar. For example: Rotten
apples are like rotten<BR>> eggs. The similar property between rotten
apples and rotten eggs is that<BR>> both can be used to throw at corrupt
politicians.<BR>><BR>> One property that the Nazi regime had was making
unilateral decisions from<BR>> the highest level without consultation or
discussion with those whom the<BR>> decisions adversely impacted. That
property is shared by Governor Otter in<BR>> the megaload issue. Hence, the
reference to Nazis would be<BR>> correctly applied.<BR>><BR>>
Comparison arguments are generally wrong when there is no property P
in<BR>> which the compared objects share or are similar. There may be
other<BR>> problems with particular comparison arguments, but if the
comparison<BR>> property is shared or similar, that is not the
problem.<BR>><BR>> Like many others on this forum, I find that some of
those who continually<BR>> boast and trumpet themselves as advocates of
free expression use Godwin like<BR>> tactics to attempt to quell meaningful
discussion and dissent.<BR>><BR>> I again recommend the short, sweet,
but hugely informative book Logic by<BR>> Wesley Salmon to those who are
logically impaired. It can be downloaded in<BR>> parts from the
web.<BR>><BR>><BR>> Let me repeat: Nazis are not the problem we are
facing:<BR>><BR>> Big money/oil secretly makes a deal with Governor
Otter, who then dictates<BR>> the terms of the deal to the sheep at the IDT
on matters where there are two<BR>> major areas of great public impact and
concern and where the secret deal<BR>> prevented serious discussion and
consideration:<BR>><BR>> 1. Impacts of this secret deal on citizens
adversely impacted by the<BR>> decision in many, many ways.<BR>><BR>>
2. Impacts of enabling a project with huge adverse impacts, some of
them<BR>> fatal, on many people, the environment, and the U.S. economy
given the<BR>> majority interests in the tar sands projects held by China,
no friend of the<BR>> environment, public health, or of the sense of
fairness in international<BR>> trade, patent, or currency
regulations.<BR>><BR>> ....<BR>><BR>> I again express my
disappointment [and disgust] at Moscow public officials<BR>> not having the
knowledge, insight into their own powers, and the guts to<BR>> oppose this
charade, not only because of the two areas of concern expressed<BR>> above,
but also because of the public policy considerations of allowing<BR>>
citizens to be the roadkill of a secret steamrolling secret deal about
which<BR>> they were prevented from participating in an open, meaningful
discussion and<BR>> debate over matters of serious importance to them. So
much for the party of<BR>> freedom and respect for the
individual.<BR>><BR>> Adding: if conversations with people I meet while
in Moscow are any<BR>> indication, my disappointment and disgust are widely
shared.<BR>><BR>> Wayne A. Fox<BR>> 1009 Karen Lane<BR>> PO Box
9421<BR>> Moscow, ID 83843<BR>><BR>> <A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>> 208
882-7975<BR>><BR>><BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From:
Joe Campbell<BR>> To: Paul Rumelhart<BR>> Cc: Vision 2020<BR>> Sent:
Friday, May 13, 2011 10:31 AM<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Questions
About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>> Give me a break. Does the interweb
"make the rules"? No. The rules began<BR>> with Aristotle and the Stoics
and they were perfected by folks like Boole<BR>> and Frege. As Wayne
clearly noted, reference to the rule -- which was made<BR>> by you, Paul,
not the interweb -- is itself a fallacy and an attempt to draw<BR>> folks
away from the issues. Use of Godwin's Law to condemn an argument or<BR>>
point is no better or worse than calling someone a Nazi in the first
place<BR>> -- unless the person is in fact a Nazi!<BR>><BR>> I now
return you to the real issue, as summarized by Wayne above ...<BR>><BR>>
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 9:44 AM, Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>><BR>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> I don't make the rules. Take it up with teh
interwebs if you think it's<BR>>> stupid.<BR>>> I'm not really
trying to win any sort of debate here, myself. Just trying<BR>>> to
impart a little perspective. Use at your own risk. That's why
Godwin's<BR>>> Law is remarkably effective, actually. It's a good
indicator that<BR>>> rationality has left the building and that further
debate is only useful for<BR>>> the lulz.<BR>>><BR>>>
Paul<BR>>><BR>>> ________________________________<BR>>>
From: Joe Campbell <<A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A>><BR>>>
To: Tom Hansen <<A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR>>> Cc:
Paul Rumelhart <<A
href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">godshatter@yahoo.com</A>>; Saundra
Lund<BR>>> <<A
href="mailto:v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm">v2020@ssl1.fastmail.fm</A>>; Vision
2020 <<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>>>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:31 AM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>>><BR>>> I made this
point but Paul is not listening. There was no
comparison.<BR>>><BR>>> The claim that "the first person in an
argument who compares the other<BR>>> side to the Nazis loses the
debate" is just stupid. Why not just make the<BR>>> winner the person
with the best haircut? The person with the worst argument<BR>>> loses
the debate.<BR>>><BR>>> On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Tom
Hansen <<A href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>>><BR>>> Let me get one thing straight to Mr. Rumelhart
and to the rest of you<BR>>> lacking any sense of
comprehension.<BR>>><BR>>> My reference to Nazis was NOT aimed at
Wayne Krauss.<BR>>><BR>>> My comment, word for word, . .
.<BR>>><BR>>> "Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't
anywhere near US95 or<BR>>> Moscow yet is like justifying the Nazis as
long as they knock on somebody<BR>>> else's
door."<BR>>><BR>>> The comparison I clearly drew was between
"megaloads weren't anywhere near<BR>>> US95 or Moscow" and Nazis
knocking "on somebody else's door."<BR>>><BR>>> If you really do
feel like dragging this dead horse around with you, how<BR>>> about
taking to your buddies at teh sandbox, ok?<BR>>><BR>>> 'Nuff
said.<BR>>><BR>>> Now, if you will excuse me, I have four hours of
Moscow Megaload Meeting<BR>>> videos to edit and
post.<BR>>><BR>>> Tom Hansen<BR>>> Moscow,
Idaho<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Fri, May
13, 2011 7:34 am, Paul Rumelhart wrote:<BR>>> ><BR>>> >
Believe me, I'm no fan of Newt Gingrich. All I need to know about
him<BR>>> > is that he pressed his first wife for divorce while she
was in the<BR>>> > hospital recovering from cancer-related surgery,
not to mention<BR>>> > committing adultery while criticizing Clinton
for doing the same thing<BR>>> > during the Monica Lewinski
scandal.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Anyway, the idea is that the first
person in an argument who compares<BR>>> > the other side to the
Nazis loses the debate.<BR>>> ><BR>>> > Paul<BR>>>
><BR>>> > On 05/13/2011 12:00 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:<BR>>>
>> Huh -- I wasn't familiar with that term.<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> Since you cited the Wikipedia article ("has been
invoked for the<BR>>> >> inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in
articles or speeches"), then do<BR>>> >> you agree that hyperbolic
"Godwin's law" (which you obviously accept<BR>>> >> since you
called it) is far more appropriately applied to Nasty Newt<BR>>>
>> Gingrich than to Tom Hansen& to Ted Moffett (in his "Saint
Augustine:<BR>>> >> "Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to
virtue" response)?<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Just wonderin'. .
.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Saundra
Lund<BR>>> >> Moscow, ID<BR>>> >><BR>>> >>
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
to<BR>>> >> do nothing.<BR>>> >> ~ Edmund
Burke<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> ***** Original material
contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life<BR>>> >> plus 70
years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or<BR>>> >>
reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express
written<BR>>> >> permission of the author.*****<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> >><BR>>> >>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>> >> From: Paul Rumelhart
[mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com]<BR>>> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 11,
2011 6:34 PM<BR>>> >> To: Tom Hansen<BR>>> >> Cc:
Saundra Lund; 'Vision 2020'; 'Donovan Arnold'<BR>>> >> Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] Questions About Semi-Megaloads in Moscow<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Wow, you've just Godwin'd
this thread by comparing this issue to the<BR>>> >> Nazis. See <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law</A><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> I'm not looking forward to having to wait an
hour for these guys to<BR>>> >> move<BR>>> >> a
semi-megaload down the highway, but let's try to keep some<BR>>>
>> perspective<BR>>> >> here. We're talking traffic delays,
possible road damage, possible<BR>>> >> electricity outages, and
one giant megacorp putting a little more money<BR>>> >> in their
giant coffers than they otherwise would. Besides, if we "win",<BR>>>
>> they'll just find a more expensive way of moving these things and
force<BR>>> >> the extra cost on to the consumers.<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> I'm not saying you're not fighting the good
fight, let's just keep it<BR>>> >> in<BR>>> >>
perspective.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> Paul<BR>>>
>><BR>>> >> On 05/11/2011 11:02 AM, Tom Hansen
wrote:<BR>>> >>> Excusing Krauss because the megaloads weren't
anywhere near US95 or<BR>>> >>> Moscow yet is like justifying
the Nazis as long as they knock on<BR>>> >>> somebody else's
door.<BR>>> >><BR>>> >> <snip><BR>>>
>><BR>>> >><BR>>> ><BR>>> >
=======================================================<BR>>> > List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>> > serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>>> > <A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>> > <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>
> =======================================================<BR>>>
><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> "The Pessimist complains about the
wind, the Optimist expects it to<BR>>> changeand the Realist adjusts his
sails."<BR>>><BR>>> - Unknown<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>
=======================================================<BR>>> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>>> <A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>>
=======================================================<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>><BR>>
________________________________<BR>><BR>>
=======================================================<BR>> List services
made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.<BR>> <A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
=======================================================<BR>><BR>>
=======================================================<BR>> List services
made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.<BR>> <A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
=======================================================<BR>><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>