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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>OK, I missed your point, and I’m still missing your point -- sorry. What is it, exactly? That it’s OK for one group to speak publicly about the evils of some marriages (I surely don’t recall you ever telling any of the anti-gay marriage advocates to “butt the f—k out”), but it’s not OK for other groups to speak publicly about the evils of some marriages and the hypocrisy of those who whine about the sanctity of marriage being desecrated if we don’t deny “immoral sinners” who are law-abiding, loving, consenting adults equal protection under the law? Or is it that you think it’s peachy to keep stunningly silent about the hypocrisy from theocracy cravers like Doug Wilson while never missing a chance to ram the “hypocrisy” label down the throats of those who have the nerve to point out Wilson’s rank hypocrisy?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We Get It, Kai, that you don’t care about Wilson, or about what he’s tried & is trying to make our community into, or about his hypocrisy, or about any of the rest of it, but what I don’t understand is why those of us who <b>do</b> care deserve your ire & insults? Talk about childish . . . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You are correct that there’s an ideological clash – that’s exactly what Wilson wanted & engineered. His congregation managed to exist here just fine until it started in earnest (as opposed to organized boycotts of local businesses they thought indecent) trying to ram their ideology down the throats of us all. Not that I expect you to care – you’ve made it crystal clear that you really don’t give a rip about the facts (and, BTW, it’s really childish for you to dispute the accuracy of attributed quotes simply because you choose to “not care”), but for the sake of those who are coming to the conversation late and who <b>do</b> care, I’ll toss out the reminder that Doug Wilson views the Moscow/Pullman area as a decisive point for his strategic evangelism. I’m going to repost something I wrote back in 2004 – it’s obviously no longer current as time has passed, but it’s accurate up to that point (I’ll not include cites since you’ve clearly stated you don’t “care” to educate yourself, Kai):<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I was aware of Doug Wilson almost from the beginning (of my time at the UI) -- I used to listen to him speak/debate in the area I believe used to be known as the Quad outside the UCC building on the UI campus. I remember well my reaction to his positions: interesting, entertaining fellow with some problems with his "philosophical" thinking . . . not my cup of tea, but hey: live and let live. He's certainly entitled to his <b>beliefs</b>, just as I'm entitled to my <b>beliefs</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>And, that's a position I held for many years whenever I heard rumblings about what was going on with respect to CC/Logos/Cannon Press/Credenda Agenda/ACCS/NSA et al. That's a position I continue to hold, but I now understand that in Wilson's World, he would use his theocratic power and his minions and his twisted interpretation of the Bible to <b>punish</b> those who <b>don't</b> share his views. IMHO, that's a far cry from the tolerance I extend to him and to those who have beliefs different from mine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>For years, in the name of tolerance, I mistakenly didn't look any further than the difference of religion. Now, my position has matured: they are certainly welcome to continue believe and worship as they choose, but I'm drawing a big bold line between that and dishonesty, stealth candidates, and theocracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>According to Wilson and his minions, people who share his views are moving <b>to</b> Moscow (he makes it sound like in positive droves, although I personally think his perception is likely skewed given his interpretation of the Bible) from as far away as Korea. I don't think he's having luck recruiting a ton of existing community members to his flock, although if local individuals and families are finding his church "home" a fit for their beliefs, then that's their right.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It's not Wilson's theology that's dangerous for our community (although I certainly don't agree with his interpretation), it's his stated mission for his flavor of theocracy that's the problem: his religious beliefs and his stated desire for theocratic rule cannot be separated from each other. If he was just expressing his beliefs by "preaching and teaching and persuasion and so forth" and encountering opposition, I'd be standing up for his right to believe the moon is made out of cheese.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>But, in spite of what he tells us Intoleristas and/or Non-Believers (defined as those who don't share his particular flavor of religion/theocracy), he <b>clearly</b> wants to put the force of law behind <b>his</b> beliefs to tell others what they can or cannot do, what they can or can't believe. Either we live according to <b>his</b> dictates of The Good Life or we're punished in this life: he hopes he can convince us to repent to Save Our Souls for the hereafter, but if not, then in his theocracy, there's always legal punishment in this life to get what he wants. That's his goal for <b>our</b> community. And he's actively recruiting people to move to this community to help him accomplish his worldview here.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Do you think that by not knowing and discussing this that the threat will go away? You have to look no further than Moscow Ordinance 2002-13 to see the effect Wilson and followers had with a seat on the City Council. And, it's not difficult to imagine the negative impact on public education in <b>our</b> community had Kirker/anti-public education stealth candidate Mark Beuchamp been successful in his 2002 bid for a seat on the <b>public</b> school board.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bluntly put, Wilson and his followers are going to keep right on marching towards their goal. Period. It seems to me that we, as a community, have a responsibility to be aware of Wilson & his followers theocratic beliefs and stated agenda and be vocal in our opposition (assuming you disagree with theocracy and laws that reflect a fringe vocal minority's morality).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Wilson views Moscow as a decisive point:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"In the 60s, my father wrote a small but enormously influential book called The Principles of War. In it, he applied the principles of physical warfare to what he called strategic evangelism. This idea of warfare is necessary in order to understand a central part of what is happening here, and by this I mean the concept of the decisive point. A decisive point is one which is simultaneously strategic and feasible. Strategic means that it would be a significant loss to the enemy if taken. Feasible means that it is possible to take. New York City is strategic but not feasible. Bovill is feasible but not strategic. But small towns with major universities (Moscow and Pullman, say) are both."<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>No, being silent is not the answer; you can see from the quote above that Wilson et al view the existing community as the "enemy." And he doesn't hesitate to bully those who disagree with him by applying provocative and divisive labels, insulting our intelligence, and accusing those who disagree with his flavor of religion/theocracy of the <b>very</b> things he and his sheep are: intolerant.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>[Note: for those interested, the sermon referenced above was given by Wilson on 12/28/2003.]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kai, until you “care” enough to educate yourself, which hasn’t happened yet, it really is you who should shut the f—k up. That’s not something I’d normally say, but since you think that kind of response to those with whom you disagree is appropriate, then it seems appropriate to meet you where you feel comfortable.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>BTW, I don’t think I responded to your post (it fell into that category of posts I thought deserved response but got lost in the shuffle of my life), but I couldn’t be more happy for you, your family, and your brother that you reconnected. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Saundra Lund<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Moscow, ID<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>~ Edmund Burke<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2011 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kai Eiselein<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 05, 2011 1:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> vision2020@moscow.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Angry Hens<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Saundra, you seem to have missed my point.<br>The same people who engaged in much gnashing of teeth over anti-gay marriage laws a few years ago are now gnashing their teeth over what appears to be a marriage that is completely legal.<br>As I argued before, it is the community's right to choose what is socially acceptable. That argument was met with plenty of derision right here on the ol' viz. Now it seems that position has changed and a number of people who disagreed with my argument then have proven my point, in spades, I might add.<br>Anybody for a big steaming helping of hypocrisy?<br>As for Wilson, I haven't read any of his books, pamphlets, comic books, novels or flyers. I'm sorry, I'm just not all that interested in his religious or world views, so I cannot comment on what he may or may not have said based soley on the word of someone who appears to have an axe to grind with him.<br>If there is a legal issue, then by all means take it to the courts, council, commission, or wherever it needs to be addressed.<br>This constant screeching about every little thing is just plain childish and I believe it goes deeper than any legal issues. In fact, I believe it is an ideological clash and despite all of the "Coexist" stickers on cars in this town, there is a deep seated hatred towards anybody or anything that doesn't fit in with the local liberal lockstep.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></html>