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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kai,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Have you ever worked as a teacher?…do you have any idea how hard a committed teacher works?…and for pennies. Nights committed to preparation and grading, weekends committed to prep and grad, spending their own money on supplies, afternoons spent overseeing the needs of their students; summers spent taking additional courses to remain up-to-date and prepared. I have never worked so hard in my life<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>and I have never been so preoccupied by the needs of others, by the emotional and physical needs of children and their families.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Teachers work to the bone and they deserve to be partners in negotiations which effect the workplace and the needs of children and their families.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Betsy Dickow<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sue Hovey<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 19, 2011 1:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> Kai Eiselein; vision2020@moscow.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] An Item of Major Interest<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'>Kai,</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'>I know, so wonder about something else. Unwavering union member, well yes. But not necessarily uncritical. I spent more than 30 years lobbying the Idaho legislature—working for kindergartens, a sales tax, bargaining rights for public employees, teacher licensing regulations. Those times I testified before Mack Neiber with him slyly calling me Sue “Honey” were never pleasant, and often not even productive, but it sure as hell wasn’t posturing. </span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'>Sue</span><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#150E00'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:fotopro63@hotmail.com" title="fotopro63@hotmail.com">Kai Eiselein</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Friday, February 18, 2011 3:51 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" title="vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [Vision2020] An Item of Major Interest<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Sue,<br>Indentured servants? Really?<br>I wonder if you know what an indentured servant is/was after that statement.<br>Of course, it could just be unwavering union loyalty speaking... or maybe you are just posturing.<br>> From: vision2020-request@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 172<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:12:55 -0800<br>> <br>> Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to<br>> vision2020@moscow.com<br>> <br>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>> http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020<br>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>> vision2020-request@moscow.com<br>> <br>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>> vision2020-owner@moscow.com<br>> <br>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>> than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."<br>> <br>> <br>> Today's Topics:<br>> <br>> 1. Presidents' Day Education Rally (Tom Hansen)<br>> 2. Re: An Item of Major Interest . . . (Sue Hovey)<br>> 3. Re: Vandalism blamed on politics (Sue Hovey)<br>> 4. Sorry Nicky, Name's Taken (Ron Force)<br>> 5. Re: House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care .<br>> . . (Joe Campbell)<br>> <br>> <br>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 1<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:56:32 -0800 (PST)<br>> From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com><br>> Subject: [Vision2020] Presidents' Day Education Rally<br>> To: "Donna Woolston" <appearances@mail.moscow.com>, "Friends of the<br>> Clearwater" <foc@friendsoftheclearwater.org>, "Fritz Knorr"<br>> <fritzknorr@gmail.com>, "Jeanne McHale" <jeannemchale@hotmail.com>,<br>> "Joann Muneta" <Jmuneta@uidaho.edu>, "Linda Pall" <lpall@moscow.com>,<br>> "Lois Blackburn" <lblackburn@turbonet.com>, "Moscow Vision 2020"<br>> <vision2020@moscow.com>, "Sally Fredericks" <dickfred@moscow.com>,<br>> "Sally Perrine" <sperrine@potlatch.com>, "Vera White"<br>> <vnwhite@cableone.net><br>> Message-ID: <4ad1ed9091a6d480c61ac0aee227c04c.squirrel@secure.fsr.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>> <br>> Monday, 12:00 noon - Friendship Square<br>> <br>> http://www.MoscowCares.com/EducationRally<br>> <br>> Seeya there, Moscow.<br>> <br>> Tom Hansen<br>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> <br>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> <br>> - Unknown<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 2<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:41:22 -1000<br>> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey@moscow.com><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Item of Major Interest . . .<br>> To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>, "Joe Campbell"<br>> <philosopher.joe@gmail.com>, "Dave" <tiedye@turbonet.com>,<br>> "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> Message-ID: <458DCC1F93994136B99B2DE103CF249A@SuePC><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<br>> reply-type=original<br>> <br>> And today in the halls of the Idaho Statehouse Senators voted to print a <br>> bill which would abolish collective bargaining by public employees.<br>> <br>> Sue H.<br>> <br>> -----Original Message----- <br>> From: Tom Hansen<br>> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 3:41 AM<br>> To: Joe Campbell ; Dave ; vision2020<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Item of Major Interest . . .<br>> <br>> Courtesy of the USA Today at:<br>> <br>> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-17-public-unions_N.htm<br>> <br>> "An estimated 25,000 teachers and others flooded the Wisconsin Capitol on<br>> Thursday as Democratic lawmakers left the state to stymie a vote on the<br>> governor's proposal to reduce collective bargaining rights and benefits<br>> for public workers.<br>> <br>> Labor leaders accused Republican Gov. Scott Walker of using a budget<br>> shortfall to bust unions representing teachers and other public workers.<br>> <br>> As Republicans tried to begin Senate business, observers screamed,<br>> "Freedom! Democracy! Unions!"<br>> <br>> Many schools across the state were closed because teachers had called in<br>> sick. Walker said he was prepared to call in the National Guard."<br>> <br>> -------------<br>> <br>> It seems that ALL fourteen senate democrats left the state to prevent a<br>> vote on Wisconsin's union-killing bill. Without at least one of the<br>> senate Democrats, there is no quorum. No quorum, no vote.<br>> <br>> Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>> <br>> Tom Hansen<br>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> On Fri, February 18, 2011 5:20 am, Joe Campbell wrote:<br>> > I like how they include the point about providing for "employee rights" so<br>> > no one can complain!<br>> ><br>> > I heard a similar report on NPR last night, suggesting that the trend was<br>> > national, as well.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Feb 17, 2011, at 11:12 PM, Dave <tiedye@turbonet.com> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Listen to this morning's (Thursday's) Democracy Now! The attack on,<br>> >> well, people, is nationwide.<br>> >><br>> >> Dave<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> On 02/17/2011 03:23 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:<br>> >>> Ya wanna know what the boys and girls of the Senate State Affairs<br>> >>> Committee will be talkin' about tomorrow?<br>> >>><br>> >>> --------------------------<br>> >>><br>> >>> RS20248<br>> >>><br>> >>> The purpose of this bill is to change sections of Idaho Code to create<br>> >>> public policy to prohibit public sector collective bargaining, to<br>> >>> provide<br>> >>> for public employee rights and to prohibit public employee strikes.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Sponsor: Senator Shirley McKague<br>> >>><br>> >>> --------------------------<br>> >>><br>> >>> I kinda wonder how they're gonna sugar-coat this?<br>> >>><br>> >>> Hmmm.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Stay tuned, Moscow.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Tom Hansen<br>> >>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> >>><br>> >>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to<br>> >>> change<br>> >>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> >>><br>> >>> - Unknown<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >>> =======================================================<br>> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >>> http://www.fsr.net<br>> >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >>> =======================================================<br>> >>><br>> >>><br>> >><br>> >> --<br>> >> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>> >> McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br>> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >> http://www.fsr.net<br>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> =======================================================<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> ><br>> <br>> <br>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> <br>> - Unknown<br>> <br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> http://www.fsr.net<br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> ======================================================= <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 3<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:15:58 -1000<br>> From: "Sue Hovey" <suehovey@moscow.com><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on politics<br>> To: "Dave" <tiedye@turbonet.com>, "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> Message-ID: <687CBA0D94D849599D970E75C20DFEBC@SuePC><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";<br>> reply-type=original<br>> <br>> To Dan & Dave<br>> <br>> Umbrage....Cripes. And you spend all that space posturing when the Supt <br>> and his ilk in the legislature are planning to make teachers indentured <br>> servants. You don't have that power, so no, I'd never confront either of <br>> you on your mother's doorstep. In fact, given your political views, I can't <br>> much imagine confronting you at all.<br>> <br>> I spent my teaching career as an active member of a union that fought for <br>> every gain we made--issues which covered items most folks took for granted. <br>> Perhaps going to his mother's house to confront him would be unnecessary. <br>> The next time he goes to visit, maybe, in a move to discourage him, she'll <br>> just come out from under the porch and bite him on the leg.<br>> <br>> Sue H<br>> <br>> -----Original Message----- <br>> From: Dave<br>> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:05 PM<br>> To: vision2020<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on politics<br>> <br>> I agree with Dan.<br>> <br>> However I still think Luna vandalized his own truck for the publicity<br>> and political points. It's the "Republican" thing to do.<br>> <br>> Dave<br>> <br>> <br>> On 02/17/2011 12:55 PM, Dan Carscallen wrote:<br>> > I take a little umbrage at this, as an elected official.<br>> ><br>> > I don't think it appropriate to confront someone at their mother's house, <br>> > or at their own house, or in any private setting. Yes, I realize that <br>> > there are occasions when (in my case) city business will come up, like at <br>> > some other city function, my kids' activities, or even a Moscow Bear game. <br>> > Suffice it to say, if I'm at one of my kids' events or a Bear football <br>> > game, you're not going to get my undivided attention.<br>> ><br>> > As far as going to my mother's house, or even my house for that matter, <br>> > I'm not sure that's going to do you much good. I don't really confide in <br>> > my mother about what's going on in the city, and she really doesn't care <br>> > as long as I'm not embarrassing her on TV (okay the peeing in the pool <br>> > comment was close . . .) I won't comment on age, because that's just not <br>> > gentlemanly.<br>> ><br>> > Anyhow, if you've got comments or concerns about something I'm doing, <br>> > don't talk to my mom or my wife or any other member of my family. Take it <br>> > up with me.<br>> ><br>> > Love or hate Tom Luna, does confronting his mother about what he's doing <br>> > really further one's cause?<br>> ><br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <br>> > On Behalf Of Sue Hovey<br>> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:32 PM<br>> > To: Joe Campbell; Tom Hansen<br>> > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020<br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on politics<br>> ><br>> > While I would never resort to damaging an innocent vehicle, I'd sure be <br>> > willing to confront Luna, even at his mother's house. I'm older than she <br>> > is, so she ought to be able to deal with it.<br>> ><br>> > Sue H<br>> ><br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: Joe Campbell<br>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 4:33 AM<br>> > To: Tom Hansen<br>> > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020<br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on politics<br>> ><br>> > Luna more or less says "I'm not blaming anyone -- but it was likely <br>> > liberals."<br>> ><br>> > Imagine if he was blaming someone!<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Feb 16, 2011, at 6:06 AM, "Tom Hansen"<thansen@moscow.com> wrote:<br>> ><br>> >> Courtesy of today's (February 16, 2011) Spokesman-Review.<br>> >><br>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------<br>> >><br>> >> Vandalism blamed on politics<br>> >> Luna?s truck damaged amid debate over schools plan<br>> >><br>> >> BOISE ? Vandals slashed two tires and spray-painted the truck of<br>> >> Idaho?s public schools chief as the furor over his proposed education<br>> >> reforms appeared to grow uglier.<br>> >><br>> >> Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Luna said he woke up early<br>> >> Tuesday and found the word ?Luna? painted on the truck with a slash<br>> >> through the letters.<br>> >><br>> >> ?I?m not pointing any fingers at any individuals or groups, but<br>> >> there?s no doubt in my mind? the vandalism involved the reforms, Luna<br>> >> told the Associated Press.<br>> >><br>> >> Nampa police were investigating and have not yet determined a motive<br>> >> or identified any suspects, Deputy Chief Craig Kingsbury said.<br>> >><br>> >> Luna?s sweeping overhaul calls for introducing merit pay and<br>> >> eliminating tenure for new teachers while expanding online courses.<br>> >> Idaho would increase class sizes to pay for a bulk of the reforms and<br>> >> cut about 770 teaching positions as more courses are taught online.<br>> >><br>> >> Hearings on the education reforms were expected to continue Tuesday in<br>> >> the Idaho Senate, where the legislation was introduced earlier this<br>> >> month and is being reworked amid opposition from teachers, parents and<br>> >> some lawmakers.<br>> >><br>> >> Luna was heckled Tuesday morning after a live newscast in a downtown<br>> >> Boise coffee shop, and he said he filed a police report after an angry<br>> >> teacher went to his mother?s house over the weekend. Police were<br>> >> investigating but have not found any suspects.<br>> >><br>> >> Luna denounced organizers of the opposition to his reforms, saying<br>> >> e-mails have been sent out that included the home addresses and phone<br>> >> numbers of elected officials. Actions that resulted in someone going<br>> >> to his 71-year-old mother?s home amounted to ?union thuggery,? he said.<br>> >><br>> >> The Idaho Education Association has denied sending any e-mails with<br>> >> home addresses or phone numbers.<br>> >><br>> >> ?The IEA condemns vandalism and urges that anyone found to be<br>> >> responsible be prosecuted for their actions,? association President <br>> >> Sherri Wood said.<br>> >> ?We do not resort to violence or harassment to solve problems.?<br>> >><br>> >> --------------------<br>> >><br>> >> Gov. Butch Otter and state Superintendent of Schools Tom Luna call for<br>> >> civil discourse on school reform Tuesday, after Luna?s vehicle was<br>> >> vandalized the previous evening and Luna was heckled at a coffee shop<br>> >> and confronted by an angry teacher outside his mother?s house.<br>> >><br>> >> http://media.spokesman.com/photos/2011/02/16/cop_newotter16_t620.jpg<br>> >><br>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------<br>> >><br>> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.<br>> >><br>> >> Tom Hansen<br>> >> Moscow, Idaho<br>> >><br>> >> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to<br>> >> change and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> >><br>> >> - Unknown<br>> >><br>> >><br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the<br>> >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> >> http://www.fsr.net<br>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> =======================================================<br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the <br>> > communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> ><br>> > =======================================================<br>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > =======================================================<br>> ><br>> ><br>> <br>> -- <br>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>> McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> http://www.fsr.net<br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> ======================================================= <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 4<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:27:05 -0800 (PST)<br>> From: Ron Force <rforce2003@yahoo.com><br>> Subject: [Vision2020] Sorry Nicky, Name's Taken<br>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Message-ID: <181484.77120.qm@web46104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110218/969d3f63/attachment-0001.html <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> Message: 5<br>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:12:43 -0800<br>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty -<br>> FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><br>> Cc: Vision 2020 <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> Message-ID: <03DBBF6C-1920-4692-B062-3D9F46B206C4@gmail.com><br>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>> <br>> No Donovan; I'm just criticizing your argument.<br>> <br>> You make it seem like the mere criticism of your argument is some kind of insult. It isn't.<br>> <br>> And I don't see how we get from your bad argument to my being a "pompous ass." In fact we don't. That's just another bad argument!<br>> <br>> On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:50 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> <br>> > Joe,<br>> > <br>> > You are again intentionally just being a pompous ass. It has become so nature for you to put something smartassish in every comment you make. This is why people feel no sympathy for $100K taxpayer supported positions being axed or reduced when the budget gets tight. You contribute nothing to society as in this conversation, or any conversation. You twist the meaning of what people mean, play semantics, and think that it demonstrates your superior intellect and education when it in fact it only demonstrates your sophistication and capacity of being a worthless ass with no useful skills to society, whatsoever.<br>> > <br>> > Donovan Arnold<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> > From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> > To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><br>> > Cc: "lfalen" <lfalen@turbonet.com>, "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:26 AM<br>> > <br>> > "Donovan" that is not what I'm doing. Which is why you won't quote your own words and show me the difference in "structure." What was the stricter of your argument, by the way?<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > On Feb 17, 2011, at 10:40 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> > <br>> >> Roger,<br>> >> <br>> >> That isn't what he is doing. He offers an argument with a slightly different structure to make it a much weaker argument that nobody would really honestly make, it is called a strawman argument. He then exposes the obvious flaws in his new made up weaker argument that he tries to assign as mine.<br>> >> <br>> >> In this argument he shifts the argument about what the Constitution specifically says to one about what it doesn't say.<br>> >> <br>> >> My argument is that the Constitution states specifically what the Federal Governments powers are and everything else not mentioned is a power that goes to the states. The Constitution doesn't specifically mention the power to force residents of the states to purchase items. So, it cannot do that. Only the states, or the people can force people to purchase items.<br>> >> <br>> >> Joe's strawman argument confused the reader with thinking my argument is making the claim that "ANYTHING" not specifically mentioned in the Constitution should be considered unconstitutional. That is not my argument.<br>> >> <br>> >> Joe is using his knowledge of logical argumentation to be more misleading and dishonest, rather than engaging in an honest dialogue about an important issue.<br>> >> <br>> >> Donovan Arnold<br>> >> <br>> >> --- On Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com> wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><br>> >> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> >> To: "lfalen" <lfalen@turbonet.com><br>> >> Cc: "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>, "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><br>> >> Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 9:39 PM<br>> >> <br>> >> It is a counterexample to Donovan's argument. <br>> >> <br>> >> In a counterexample, what you do is you offer an argument with the same structure as the one you are critiquing but with an obviously false conclusion. <br>> >> <br>> >> That shows that the premises of the first argument (Donovan's in this case) don't support the conclusion.<br>> >> <br>> >> The illogic of my argument, which you admit, illustrates the the illogic of Donovan's argument. Thanks for pointing that out!<br>> >> <br>> >> But don't believe me. I've only been teaching logic for 20 years!<br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:12 PM, lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com> wrote:<br>> >> <br>> >> > You teach logic. Where is the logic in this statement?<br>> >> > Roger<br>> >> > -----Original message-----<br>> >> > From: Joe Campbell philosopher.joe@gmail.com<br>> >> > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:56:59 -0800<br>> >> > To: Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<br>> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> >> > <br>> >> >> I don't see anything in the constitution about the Internet.<br>> >> >> <br>> >> >> Therefore, Donovan's last post is unconstitutional.<br>> >> >> <br>> >> >> <br>> >> >> <br>> >> >> On Feb 16, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> wrote:<br>> >> >> <br>> >> >>> "The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. "--Art Deco <br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> This is a completely different situation on several levels;<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> First, there is a difference between a state requiring you to demonstrate while operating a heavy piece of equipment you have the means to pay for any damage to property, versus that of the federal government requiring you with buy a particular product.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> I can escape the insurance requirement in Idaho by either moving out of state, choosing not to drive, or I can save up enough money to demonstrate I can pay for damages i may incur while operating a piece of heavy equipment on public highways and roadways.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> Federal Mandated Health Insurance I cannot do the same thing. I cannot move out of state. I cannot disown or park my body (I am stuck with). And I can never demonstrate that I have enough money to pay for reasonable health problems, and that could be in the millions very easily.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> And of course there is the Constitutional issue that it reserves all rights not listed in it to the states. I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the authority to require people to buy a particular product. Although I think the government can get around this issue in the same way as it did in 80s by changing the drinking age to 21, forcing the states to comply by withholding federal dollars.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> I personally think it is a bad idea to have the federal government be able to make you buy something. Especially when its goal of providing health care to everyone will not succeed this way. The only way to get everyone to have access to health care is to tax people and provide it, just like every other service the government provides.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> Donovan Arnold <br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Art Deco <deco@moscow.com> wrote:<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> From: Art Deco <deco@moscow.com><br>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> >> >>> To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >> >>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 3:36 PM<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. The courts have ruled that this is a legitimate power of the government. It will be interesting to see how this issue as it relates to health insurance is argued in the courts.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> w.<br>> >> >>> ----- Original Message -----<br>> >> >>> From: Donovan Arnold<br>> >> >>> To: Moscow Vision 2020 ; Tom Hansen<br>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07 PM<br>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> I have to agree that the government does not have the authority to compel you to participate in buying health Insurance or any product or service from a private company. Especially when it is such a rip-off and there is no regulation on what these insurance companies can collectively decide they want you to pay once you are required by to purchase it from them. They could charge $500-$1500 a month and you would have to pay it. If they wanted to tax you and provide access to health care that would be within their legal authority because that is what the government does.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> However, I don't agree with the wording of the bill that employers should be allowed to get away with not offering any health insurance without raising their minimum paid wages. You cannot afford health insurance on $7.25 an hour. Hell, you cannot even afford quality health insurance at $12.50 an hour working 50 hours a week when the government is skimming 40 cents on every dollar you sweat blood and tears to make. Employers should have some basic responsibility for the welfare of their employers especially when many employers put their employees at risk for lots of health problems. Working conditions need to be beyond third world standards here in Idaho. Idahoan workers deserve at least this much. Too bad the Governor of Idaho and the majority of the current legislature doesn't agree.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> Donovan Arnold<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com><br>> >> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - Federal Health Care . . .<br>> >> >>> To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><br>> >> >>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 11:43 AM<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> Has passed the Idaho House by a vote of 49-20.<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> Tom Hansen<br>> >> >>> Moscow, Idaho<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>> >> >>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> - Unknown<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> >> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> >> >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> >> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> >> >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> >> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> >> >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> <br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> >> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> >> >>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> >>> =======================================================<br>> >> >> <br>> >> >> <br>> >> <br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> >> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> >> http://www.fsr.net <br>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> >> =======================================================<br>> >> <br>> > <br>> -------------- next part --------------<br>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>> URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20110218/423dfe5e/attachment.html <br>> <br>> ------------------------------<br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br>> <br>> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue 172<br>> *******************************************<o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> http://www.fsr.net <br> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>=======================================================<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>