<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>You said, pretty clearly, that since something is not specifically in the constitution, it is unconstitutional. </div><div><br></div><div>And then you called me names and threw some names of fallacies around.</div><div><br></div><div>Have a nice time distorting the truth! I've got to get back to my day job.</div><div><br></div><div><br>On Feb 17, 2011, at 10:12 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>Joe, </div>
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<div>That was not a counter example, the constitution specifically states that any POWER not given to the federal government in the constitution is reserved to the states, or the people. You are misrepresenting my argument to say if the constitution doesn't mention a specific detail in its authority it then it not allowed, not the same arguments. You are trying to use deductive reasoning for an inductive argument. </div>
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<div>Does Idaho have the right to coin money, Joe? Why not? For the same reason that the Federal Government cannot force individuals to purchase certain items in each state. The Constitution specifies which POWERS belong in each type of government. That way, we are not forced to buy new cars and televisions every other year as part of the next president's economic stimulus plan. </div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold </div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold</div>
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<div>--- On <b>Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>Cc: "Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>><br>Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 9:27 PM<br><br>
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<div><span class="yiv1538060438Apple-style-span">No it was a counterexample to this claim you made below.</span></div>
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<div>I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the authority to require people to buy a particular product. </div></td></tr></tbody></table></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table></div></blockquote></span><br><br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 17, 2011, at 9:19 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
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<div>No Joe, it was a counter example to your strawman argument. You knew my argument was about the federal government expanding its powers beyond the constitution to require something that is a reserved right of the states, it was not about a a particular object or service.</div>
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<div>You are again, intellectually dishonest. </div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold<br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - <span><span>FederalHealth</span></span> Care . . .<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>><br>Cc: "Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 12:02 PM<br><br>
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<div>It was a counterexample to YOUR argument.<br><br><br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 17, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
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<div>Joe,</div>
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<div>Right, Joe, and because the Air Force or automobiles aren't specifically mentioned it is illegal too.Throwing a <span>strawman</span> argument that was never made, and attacking it with a pit bull.seems to be a common theme of your emails. </div>
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<div>But don't get me wrong, I love pretending to be stupid too like you, Joe, it is so fun to take a serious question about the power of the government over individual human rights and take it to lowest denominator possible. Especially when we know how excellent the US Government has been about upholding the individual rights and liberties of every, man, woman, and child in America, regardless of race, color, creed, original nation of origin, gender, religion, veteran status, and sexual orientation.</div>
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<div>All that crap in the US Constitution about a Bill of Rights, separation, division, and limitation of power is for wussies, right Joe? Tom Jefferson, John Adams and there ilk were just overreacting to being taxed by the British. They should have been glad to pay those taxes as loyal subjects to the King, as we are too our government. Every time the government wants us to hand over more rights and increase its authority we should roll over a play dead. What we really need as a government is the benevolent philosopher king, like King George!</div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold <br><br>--- On <b>Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - <span><span>FederalHealth</span></span> Care . . .<br>To: "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>><br>Cc: "Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>>, "Art Deco" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 6:56 AM<br><br>
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<div>I don't see anything in the constitution about the Internet.</div>
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<div>Therefore, Donovan's last post is unconstitutional.<br><br><br></div>
<div><br>On Feb 16, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
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<div>"The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. "--Art Deco </div>
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<div>This is a completely different situation on several levels;</div>
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<div>First, there is a difference between a state requiring you to demonstrate while operating a heavy piece of equipment you have the means to pay for any damage to property, versus that of the federal government requiring you with buy a particular product.</div>
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<div>I can escape the insurance requirement in Idaho by either moving out of state, choosing not to drive, or I can save up enough money to demonstrate I can pay for damages i may incur while operating a piece of heavy equipment on public highways and roadways. </div>
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<div>Federal Mandated Health Insurance I cannot do the same thing. I cannot move out of state. I cannot disown or park my body (I am stuck with). And I can never demonstrate that I have enough money to pay for reasonable health problems, and that could be in the millions very easily. </div>
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<div>And of course there is the Constitutional issue that it reserves all rights not listed in it to the states. I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the authority to require people to buy a particular product. Although I think the government can get around this issue in the same way as it did in 80s by changing the drinking age to 21, forcing the states to comply by withholding federal dollars.</div>
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<div>I personally think it is a bad idea to have the federal government be able to make you buy something. Especially when its goal of providing health care to everyone will not succeed this way. The only way to get everyone to have access to health care is to tax people and provide it, just like every other service the government provides. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Donovan Arnold <br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 2/16/11, Art Deco <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Art Deco <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - <span>FederalHealth</span> Care . . .<br>To: "Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 3:36 PM<br><br>
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<div><font size="2">The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. The courts have ruled that this is a legitimate power of the government. It will be interesting to see how this issue as it relates to health insurance is argued in the courts.</font></div>
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<div><font size="2">w.</font></div>
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<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><b>From:</b> <a title="donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Donovan Arnold</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Moscow Vision 2020</a> ; <a title="thansen@moscow.com" href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Tom Hansen</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - <span>FederalHealth</span> Care . . .</div>
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<div>I have to agree that the government does not have the authority to compel you to participate in buying health Insurance or any product or service from a private company. Especially when it is such a rip-off and there is no regulation on what these insurance companies can collectively decide they want you to pay once you are required by to purchase it from them. They could charge $500-$1500 a month and you would have to pay it. If they wanted to tax you and provide access to health care that would be within their legal authority because that is what the government does.</div>
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<div> However, I don't agree with the wording of the bill that employers should be allowed to get away with not offering any health insurance without raising their minimum paid wages. You cannot afford health insurance on $7.25 an hour. Hell, you cannot even afford quality health insurance at $12.50 an hour working 50 hours a week when the government is skimming 40 cents on every dollar you sweat blood and tears to make. Employers should have some basic responsibility for the welfare of their employers especially when many employers put their employees at risk for lots of health problems. Working conditions need to be beyond third world standards here in Idaho. Idahoan workers deserve at least this much. Too bad the Governor of Idaho and the majority of the current legislature doesn't agree. </div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold<br><br>--- On <b>Wed, 2/16/11, Tom Hansen <i><<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a></a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Tom Hansen <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Subject: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - Federal Health Care . . .<br>To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>><br>Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 11:43 AM<br><br>
<div class="yiv1538060438plainMail">Has passed the Idaho House by a vote of 49-20.<br><br><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm">http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm</a></a><br><br>Tom Hansen<br>Moscow, Idaho<br><br><br><br>"The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br><br>- Unknown<br><br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br> <span><span>mailto</span></span>:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>=======================================================<br></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
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<div class="yiv1538060438plainMail">=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://www.fsr.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a><a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>=======================================================</div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br></div></blockquote></div><br>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br><br>
<div class="plainMail">=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>=======================================================</div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
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