<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>"Donovan" that is not what I'm doing. Which is why you won't quote your own words and show me the difference in "structure." What was the stricter of your argument, by the way?</div><div><br></div><div><br>On Feb 17, 2011, at 10:40 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div>Roger,</div>
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<div>That isn't what he is doing. He offers an argument with a slightly different structure to make it a much weaker argument that nobody would really honestly make, it is called a strawman argument. He then exposes the obvious flaws in his new made up weaker argument that he tries to assign as mine. </div>
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<div>In this argument he shifts the argument about what the Constitution specifically says to one about what it doesn't say.</div>
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<div>My argument is that the Constitution states specifically what the Federal Governments powers are and everything else not mentioned is a power that goes to the states. The Constitution doesn't specifically mention the power to force residents of the states to purchase items. So, it cannot do that. Only the states, or the people can force people to purchase items. </div>
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<div>Joe's strawman argument confused the reader with thinking my argument is making the claim that "ANYTHING" not specifically mentioned in the Constitution should be considered unconstitutional. That is not my argument. </div>
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<div>Joe is using his knowledge of logical argumentation to be more misleading and dishonest, rather than engaging in an honest dialogue about an important issue. </div>
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<div>Donovan Arnold</div>
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<div>--- On <b>Thu, 2/17/11, Joe Campbell <i><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></i></b> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Joe Campbell <<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>To: "<span>lfalen</span>" <<a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a>><br>Cc: "Vision 2020" <<a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>>, "Donovan Arnold" <<a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a>><br>Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 9:39 PM<br><br>
<div class="plainMail">It is a counterexample to Donovan's argument. <br><br>In a counterexample, what you do is you offer an argument with the same structure as the one you are critiquing but with an obviously false conclusion. <br><br>That shows that the premises of the first argument (Donovan's in this case) don't support the conclusion.<br><br>The illogic of my argument, which you admit, illustrates the the illogic of Donovan's argument. Thanks for pointing that out!<br><br>But don't believe me. I've only been teaching logic for 20 years!<br><br><br><br>On Feb 17, 2011, at 12:12 PM, lfalen <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lfalen@turbonet.com" ymailto="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com"><a href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen@turbonet.com</a></a>> wrote:<br><br>> You teach logic. Where is the logic in this statement?<br>> Roger<br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: Joe Campbell <a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=philosopher.joe@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a><br>> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:56:59 -0800<br>> To: Donovan Arnold <a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a><br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>> <br>>> I don't see anything in the constitution about the Internet.<br>>> <br>>> Therefore, Donovan's last post is unconstitutional.<br>>> <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> On Feb 16, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Donovan Arnold <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com"><a href="mailto:donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com">donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com</a></a>> wrote:<br>>> <br>>>> "The state government
can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. "--Art Deco <br>>>> <br>>>> This is a completely different situation on several levels;<br>>>> <br>>>> First, there is a difference between a state requiring you to demonstrate while operating a heavy piece of equipment you have the means to pay for any damage to property, versus that of the federal government requiring you with buy a particular product.<br>>>> <br>>>> I can escape the insurance requirement in Idaho by either moving out of state, choosing not to drive, or I can save up enough money to demonstrate I can pay for damages i may incur while operating a piece of heavy equipment on public highways and roadways.<br>>>> <br>>>> Federal Mandated Health Insurance I cannot do the same thing. I cannot move out of state. I cannot disown or park my body (I am stuck
with). And I can never demonstrate that I have enough money to pay for reasonable health problems, and that could be in the millions very easily.<br>>>> <br>>>> And of course there is the Constitutional issue that it reserves all rights not listed in it to the states. I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the authority to require people to buy a particular product. Although I think the government can get around this issue in the same way as it did in 80s by changing the drinking age to 21, forcing the states to comply by withholding federal dollars.<br>>>> <br>>>> I personally think it is a bad idea to have the federal government be able to make you buy something. Especially when its goal of providing health care to everyone will not succeed this way. The only way to get everyone to have access to health care is to tax people and provide it, just like every other service the
government provides.<br>>>> <br>>>> Donovan Arnold <br>>>> <br>>>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Art Deco <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></a>> wrote:<br>>>> <br>>>> From: Art Deco <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=deco@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></a>><br>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>>>> To: "Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>><br>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 3:36 PM<br>>>> <br>>>> The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle.
The courts have ruled that this is a legitimate power of the government. It will be interesting to see how this issue as it relates to health insurance is argued in the courts.<br>>>> <br>>>> w.<br>>>> ----- Original Message -----<br>>>> From: Donovan Arnold<br>>>> To: Moscow Vision 2020 ; Tom Hansen<br>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07 PM<br>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<br>>>> <br>>>> I have to agree that the government does not have the authority to compel you to participate in buying health Insurance or any product or service from a private company. Especially when it is such a rip-off and there is no regulation on what these insurance companies can collectively decide they want you to pay once you are required by to purchase it from them. They could charge $500-$1500 a month and you
would have to pay it. If they wanted to tax you and provide access to health care that would be within their legal authority because that is what the government does.<br>>>> <br>>>> However, I don't agree with the wording of the bill that employers should be allowed to get away with not offering any health insurance without raising their minimum paid wages. You cannot afford health insurance on $7.25 an hour. Hell, you cannot even afford quality health insurance at $12.50 an hour working 50 hours a week when the government is skimming 40 cents on every dollar you sweat blood and tears to make. Employers should have some basic responsibility for the welfare of their employers especially when many employers put their employees at risk for lots of health problems. Working conditions need to be beyond third world standards here in Idaho. Idahoan workers deserve at least this much. Too bad the Governor of Idaho and the
majority of the current legislature doesn't agree.<br>>>> <br>>>> Donovan Arnold<br>>>> <br>>>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Tom Hansen <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a></a>> wrote:<br>>>> <br>>>> From: Tom Hansen <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thansen@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:thansen@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</a></a>><br>>>> Subject: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - Federal Health Care . . .<br>>>> To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>><br>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 16, 2011, 11:43 AM<br>>>> <br>>>> Has passed the Idaho House by a vote of 49-20.<br>>>>
<br>>>> <a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm" target="_blank"><a href="http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm">http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm</a></a><br>>>> <br>>>> Tom Hansen<br>>>> Moscow, Idaho<br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>>>> <br>>>> - Unknown<br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a>
<br>>>> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> <br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br>>>> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> <br>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br>>>> <br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br>>>> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>>
<br>>>> =======================================================<br>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>>>> <a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br>>>> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>>>> =======================================================<br>>> <br>>> <br><br>=======================================================<br>List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net/" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a></a> <br> mailto:<a href="http://us.mc381.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Vision2020@moscow.com" ymailto="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>=======================================================<br></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>
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