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<DIV><FONT size=4>Kai,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I know, so wonder about something else. Unwavering union
member, well yes. But not necessarily uncritical. I spent more
than 30 years lobbying the Idaho legislature—working for kindergartens, a sales
tax, bargaining rights for public employees, teacher licensing
regulations. Those times I testified before Mack Neiber with him slyly
calling me Sue “Honey” were never pleasant, and often not even productive, but
it sure as hell wasn’t posturing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Sue</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=fotopro63@hotmail.com
href="mailto:fotopro63@hotmail.com">Kai Eiselein</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 18, 2011 3:51 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] An Item of Major
Interest</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Sue,<BR>Indentured
servants? Really?<BR>I wonder if you know what an indentured servant is/was
after that statement.<BR>Of course, it could just be unwavering union loyalty
speaking... or maybe you are just posturing.<BR>> From:
vision2020-request@moscow.com<BR>> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 56, Issue
172<BR>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:12:55
-0800<BR>> <BR>> Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to<BR>>
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> <BR>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World
Wide Web, visit<BR>>
http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/vision2020<BR>> or, via email, send a
message with subject or body 'help' to<BR>>
vision2020-request@moscow.com<BR>> <BR>> You can reach the person managing
the list at<BR>> vision2020-owner@moscow.com<BR>> <BR>> When replying,
please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>> than "Re: Contents
of Vision2020 digest..."<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Today's Topics:<BR>>
<BR>> 1. Presidents' Day Education Rally (Tom Hansen)<BR>> 2. Re: An Item
of Major Interest . . . (Sue Hovey)<BR>> 3. Re: Vandalism blamed on politics
(Sue Hovey)<BR>> 4. Sorry Nicky, Name's Taken (Ron Force)<BR>> 5. Re:
House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care .<BR>> . . (Joe
Campbell)<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
<BR>> Message: 1<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:56:32 -0800 (PST)<BR>>
From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com><BR>> Subject: [Vision2020]
Presidents' Day Education Rally<BR>> To: "Donna Woolston"
<appearances@mail.moscow.com>, "Friends of the<BR>> Clearwater"
<foc@friendsoftheclearwater.org>, "Fritz Knorr"<BR>>
<fritzknorr@gmail.com>, "Jeanne McHale"
<jeannemchale@hotmail.com>,<BR>> "Joann Muneta"
<Jmuneta@uidaho.edu>, "Linda Pall" <lpall@moscow.com>,<BR>> "Lois
Blackburn" <lblackburn@turbonet.com>, "Moscow Vision 2020"<BR>>
<vision2020@moscow.com>, "Sally Fredericks"
<dickfred@moscow.com>,<BR>> "Sally Perrine"
<sperrine@potlatch.com>, "Vera White"<BR>>
<vnwhite@cableone.net><BR>> Message-ID:
<4ad1ed9091a6d480c61ac0aee227c04c.squirrel@secure.fsr.com><BR>>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<BR>> <BR>> Monday, 12:00 noon
- Friendship Square<BR>> <BR>>
http://www.MoscowCares.com/EducationRally<BR>> <BR>> Seeya there,
Moscow.<BR>> <BR>> Tom Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> <BR>> "The
Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<BR>>
and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>> <BR>> - Unknown<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> ------------------------------<BR>> <BR>>
Message: 2<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:41:22 -1000<BR>> From: "Sue
Hovey" <suehovey@moscow.com><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] An Item of
Major Interest . . .<BR>> To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>, "Joe
Campbell"<BR>> <philosopher.joe@gmail.com>, "Dave"
<tiedye@turbonet.com>,<BR>> "vision2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> Message-ID:
<458DCC1F93994136B99B2DE103CF249A@SuePC><BR>> Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";<BR>> reply-type=original<BR>>
<BR>> And today in the halls of the Idaho Statehouse Senators voted to print
a <BR>> bill which would abolish collective bargaining by public
employees.<BR>> <BR>> Sue H.<BR>> <BR>> -----Original Message-----
<BR>> From: Tom Hansen<BR>> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 3:41
AM<BR>> To: Joe Campbell ; Dave ; vision2020<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] An Item of Major Interest . . .<BR>> <BR>> Courtesy of the
USA Today at:<BR>> <BR>>
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-02-17-public-unions_N.htm<BR>>
<BR>> "An estimated 25,000 teachers and others flooded the Wisconsin Capitol
on<BR>> Thursday as Democratic lawmakers left the state to stymie a vote on
the<BR>> governor's proposal to reduce collective bargaining rights and
benefits<BR>> for public workers.<BR>> <BR>> Labor leaders accused
Republican Gov. Scott Walker of using a budget<BR>> shortfall to bust unions
representing teachers and other public workers.<BR>> <BR>> As Republicans
tried to begin Senate business, observers screamed,<BR>> "Freedom! Democracy!
Unions!"<BR>> <BR>> Many schools across the state were closed because
teachers had called in<BR>> sick. Walker said he was prepared to call in the
National Guard."<BR>> <BR>> -------------<BR>> <BR>> It seems that
ALL fourteen senate democrats left the state to prevent a<BR>> vote on
Wisconsin's union-killing bill. Without at least one of the<BR>> senate
Democrats, there is no quorum. No quorum, no vote.<BR>> <BR>> Seeya round
town, Moscow.<BR>> <BR>> Tom Hansen<BR>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On Fri, February 18, 2011 5:20 am, Joe Campbell
wrote:<BR>> > I like how they include the point about providing for
"employee rights" so<BR>> > no one can complain!<BR>> ><BR>> >
I heard a similar report on NPR last night, suggesting that the trend
was<BR>> > national, as well.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > On Feb 17, 2011, at 11:12 PM, Dave <tiedye@turbonet.com>
wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >> Listen to this morning's (Thursday's)
Democracy Now! The attack on,<BR>> >> well, people, is
nationwide.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Dave<BR>> >><BR>>
>><BR>> >> On 02/17/2011 03:23 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:<BR>>
>>> Ya wanna know what the boys and girls of the Senate State
Affairs<BR>> >>> Committee will be talkin' about tomorrow?<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> --------------------------<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> RS20248<BR>> >>><BR>>
>>> The purpose of this bill is to change sections of Idaho Code to
create<BR>> >>> public policy to prohibit public sector collective
bargaining, to<BR>> >>> provide<BR>> >>> for public
employee rights and to prohibit public employee strikes.<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> Sponsor: Senator Shirley McKague<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> --------------------------<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> I kinda wonder how they're gonna sugar-coat
this?<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> Hmmm.<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> Stay tuned, Moscow.<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>> Tom Hansen<BR>> >>> Moscow,
Idaho<BR>> >>><BR>> >>> "The Pessimist complains about
the wind, the Optimist expects it to<BR>> >>> change<BR>>
>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>> >>><BR>>
>>> - Unknown<BR>> >>><BR>> >>><BR>>
>>> =======================================================<BR>>
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>>
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>>
>>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> >>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >>>
=======================================================<BR>>
>>><BR>> >>><BR>> >><BR>> >> --<BR>>
>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<BR>> >>
McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<BR>> >><BR>> >>
=======================================================<BR>> >> List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> >> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> >>
http://www.fsr.net<BR>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>
>> =======================================================<BR>>
><BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> > List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> > serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> ><BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects
it to change<BR>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>> <BR>> -
Unknown<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
=======================================================<BR>> List services
made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>
======================================================= <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> ------------------------------<BR>> <BR>> Message:
3<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:15:58 -1000<BR>> From: "Sue Hovey"
<suehovey@moscow.com><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed
on politics<BR>> To: "Dave" <tiedye@turbonet.com>, "vision2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> Message-ID:
<687CBA0D94D849599D970E75C20DFEBC@SuePC><BR>> Content-Type: text/plain;
format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";<BR>> reply-type=original<BR>> <BR>> To
Dan & Dave<BR>> <BR>> Umbrage....Cripes. And you spend all that space
posturing when the Supt <BR>> and his ilk in the legislature are planning to
make teachers indentured <BR>> servants. You don't have that power, so no,
I'd never confront either of <BR>> you on your mother's doorstep. In fact,
given your political views, I can't <BR>> much imagine confronting you at
all.<BR>> <BR>> I spent my teaching career as an active member of a union
that fought for <BR>> every gain we made--issues which covered items most
folks took for granted. <BR>> Perhaps going to his mother's house to confront
him would be unnecessary. <BR>> The next time he goes to visit, maybe, in a
move to discourage him, she'll <BR>> just come out from under the porch and
bite him on the leg.<BR>> <BR>> Sue H<BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message----- <BR>> From: Dave<BR>> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 9:05
PM<BR>> To: vision2020<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on
politics<BR>> <BR>> I agree with Dan.<BR>> <BR>> However I still
think Luna vandalized his own truck for the publicity<BR>> and political
points. It's the "Republican" thing to do.<BR>> <BR>> Dave<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> On 02/17/2011 12:55 PM, Dan Carscallen wrote:<BR>> > I
take a little umbrage at this, as an elected official.<BR>> ><BR>> >
I don't think it appropriate to confront someone at their mother's house,
<BR>> > or at their own house, or in any private setting. Yes, I realize
that <BR>> > there are occasions when (in my case) city business will come
up, like at <BR>> > some other city function, my kids' activities, or even
a Moscow Bear game. <BR>> > Suffice it to say, if I'm at one of my kids'
events or a Bear football <BR>> > game, you're not going to get my
undivided attention.<BR>> ><BR>> > As far as going to my mother's
house, or even my house for that matter, <BR>> > I'm not sure that's going
to do you much good. I don't really confide in <BR>> > my mother about
what's going on in the city, and she really doesn't care <BR>> > as long
as I'm not embarrassing her on TV (okay the peeing in the pool <BR>> >
comment was close . . .) I won't comment on age, because that's just not
<BR>> > gentlemanly.<BR>> ><BR>> > Anyhow, if you've got
comments or concerns about something I'm doing, <BR>> > don't talk to my
mom or my wife or any other member of my family. Take it <BR>> > up with
me.<BR>> ><BR>> > Love or hate Tom Luna, does confronting his mother
about what he's doing <BR>> > really further one's cause?<BR>>
><BR>> > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > From:
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <BR>>
> On Behalf Of Sue Hovey<BR>> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 12:32
PM<BR>> > To: Joe Campbell; Tom Hansen<BR>> > Cc: Moscow Vision
2020<BR>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on politics<BR>>
><BR>> > While I would never resort to damaging an innocent vehicle,
I'd sure be <BR>> > willing to confront Luna, even at his mother's house.
I'm older than she <BR>> > is, so she ought to be able to deal with
it.<BR>> ><BR>> > Sue H<BR>> ><BR>> > -----Original
Message-----<BR>> > From: Joe Campbell<BR>> > Sent: Wednesday,
February 16, 2011 4:33 AM<BR>> > To: Tom Hansen<BR>> > Cc: Moscow
Vision 2020<BR>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandalism blamed on
politics<BR>> ><BR>> > Luna more or less says "I'm not blaming
anyone -- but it was likely <BR>> > liberals."<BR>> ><BR>> >
Imagine if he was blaming someone!<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> > On Feb 16, 2011, at 6:06 AM, "Tom
Hansen"<thansen@moscow.com> wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> >> Courtesy
of today's (February 16, 2011) Spokesman-Review.<BR>> >><BR>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Vandalism blamed on politics<BR>> >> Luna?s
truck damaged amid debate over schools plan<BR>> >><BR>> >>
BOISE ? Vandals slashed two tires and spray-painted the truck of<BR>>
>> Idaho?s public schools chief as the furor over his proposed
education<BR>> >> reforms appeared to grow uglier.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Luna said he
woke up early<BR>> >> Tuesday and found the word ?Luna? painted on the
truck with a slash<BR>> >> through the letters.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> ?I?m not pointing any fingers at any individuals or
groups, but<BR>> >> there?s no doubt in my mind? the vandalism involved
the reforms, Luna<BR>> >> told the Associated Press.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Nampa police were investigating and have not yet
determined a motive<BR>> >> or identified any suspects, Deputy Chief
Craig Kingsbury said.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Luna?s sweeping overhaul
calls for introducing merit pay and<BR>> >> eliminating tenure for new
teachers while expanding online courses.<BR>> >> Idaho would increase
class sizes to pay for a bulk of the reforms and<BR>> >> cut about 770
teaching positions as more courses are taught online.<BR>> >><BR>>
>> Hearings on the education reforms were expected to continue Tuesday
in<BR>> >> the Idaho Senate, where the legislation was introduced
earlier this<BR>> >> month and is being reworked amid opposition from
teachers, parents and<BR>> >> some lawmakers.<BR>> >><BR>>
>> Luna was heckled Tuesday morning after a live newscast in a
downtown<BR>> >> Boise coffee shop, and he said he filed a police
report after an angry<BR>> >> teacher went to his mother?s house over
the weekend. Police were<BR>> >> investigating but have not found any
suspects.<BR>> >><BR>> >> Luna denounced organizers of the
opposition to his reforms, saying<BR>> >> e-mails have been sent out
that included the home addresses and phone<BR>> >> numbers of elected
officials. Actions that resulted in someone going<BR>> >> to his
71-year-old mother?s home amounted to ?union thuggery,? he said.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> The Idaho Education Association has denied sending any
e-mails with<BR>> >> home addresses or phone numbers.<BR>>
>><BR>> >> ?The IEA condemns vandalism and urges that anyone
found to be<BR>> >> responsible be prosecuted for their actions,?
association President <BR>> >> Sherri Wood said.<BR>> >> ?We
do not resort to violence or harassment to solve problems.?<BR>>
>><BR>> >> --------------------<BR>> >><BR>> >>
Gov. Butch Otter and state Superintendent of Schools Tom Luna call for<BR>>
>> civil discourse on school reform Tuesday, after Luna?s vehicle
was<BR>> >> vandalized the previous evening and Luna was heckled at a
coffee shop<BR>> >> and confronted by an angry teacher outside his
mother?s house.<BR>> >><BR>> >>
http://media.spokesman.com/photos/2011/02/16/cop_newotter16_t620.jpg<BR>>
>><BR>> >>
---------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
>><BR>> >> Seeya round town, Moscow.<BR>> >><BR>>
>> Tom Hansen<BR>> >> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> >><BR>>
>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it
to<BR>> >> change and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>>
>><BR>> >> - Unknown<BR>> >><BR>> >><BR>>
>> =======================================================<BR>>
>> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving
the<BR>> >> communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> >>
http://www.fsr.net<BR>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>
>> =======================================================<BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> > List
services made available by First Step Internet, serving the <BR>> >
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> ><BR>>
> =======================================================<BR>> > List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> > serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> ><BR>>
> =======================================================<BR>> > List
services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> > serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >
=======================================================<BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>> <BR>> -- <BR>> Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice
as:<BR>> McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<BR>> <BR>>
=======================================================<BR>> List services
made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>>
======================================================= <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> ------------------------------<BR>> <BR>> Message:
4<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:27:05 -0800 (PST)<BR>> From: Ron Force
<rforce2003@yahoo.com><BR>> Subject: [Vision2020] Sorry Nicky, Name's
Taken<BR>> To: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> Message-ID:
<181484.77120.qm@web46104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><BR>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> -------------- next part --------------<BR>> An HTML attachment was
scrubbed...<BR>> URL:
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<BR>> <BR>> ------------------------------<BR>> <BR>> Message:
5<BR>> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:12:43 -0800<BR>> From: Joe Campbell
<philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill
117 - State Sovereignty -<BR>> FederalHealth Care . . .<BR>> To: Donovan
Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> Cc: Vision 2020
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> Message-ID:
<03DBBF6C-1920-4692-B062-3D9F46B206C4@gmail.com><BR>> Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<BR>> <BR>> No Donovan; I'm just criticizing
your argument.<BR>> <BR>> You make it seem like the mere criticism of your
argument is some kind of insult. It isn't.<BR>> <BR>> And I don't see how
we get from your bad argument to my being a "pompous ass." In fact we don't.
That's just another bad argument!<BR>> <BR>> On Feb 18, 2011, at 11:50 AM,
Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>> <BR>> >
Joe,<BR>> > <BR>> > You are again intentionally just being a pompous
ass. It has become so nature for you to put something smartassish in every
comment you make. This is why people feel no sympathy for $100K taxpayer
supported positions being axed or reduced when the budget gets tight. You
contribute nothing to society as in this conversation, or any conversation. You
twist the meaning of what people mean, play semantics, and think that it
demonstrates your superior intellect and education when it in fact it only
demonstrates your sophistication and capacity of being a worthless ass with no
useful skills to society, whatsoever.<BR>> > <BR>> > Donovan
Arnold<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > --- On Fri,
2/18/11, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> >
<BR>> > From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR>> >
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth
Care . . .<BR>> > To: "Donovan Arnold"
<donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> > Cc: "lfalen"
<lfalen@turbonet.com>, "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com><BR>>
> Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 5:26 AM<BR>> > <BR>> >
"Donovan" that is not what I'm doing. Which is why you won't quote your own
words and show me the difference in "structure." What was the stricter of your
argument, by the way?<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > On Feb 17, 2011,
at 10:40 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>>
> <BR>> >> Roger,<BR>> >> <BR>> >> That isn't what
he is doing. He offers an argument with a slightly different structure to make
it a much weaker argument that nobody would really honestly make, it is called a
strawman argument. He then exposes the obvious flaws in his new made up weaker
argument that he tries to assign as mine.<BR>> >> <BR>> >> In
this argument he shifts the argument about what the Constitution specifically
says to one about what it doesn't say.<BR>> >> <BR>> >> My
argument is that the Constitution states specifically what the Federal
Governments powers are and everything else not mentioned is a power that goes to
the states. The Constitution doesn't specifically mention the power to force
residents of the states to purchase items. So, it cannot do that. Only the
states, or the people can force people to purchase items.<BR>> >>
<BR>> >> Joe's strawman argument confused the reader with thinking my
argument is making the claim that "ANYTHING" not specifically mentioned in the
Constitution should be considered unconstitutional. That is not my
argument.<BR>> >> <BR>> >> Joe is using his knowledge of
logical argumentation to be more misleading and dishonest, rather than engaging
in an honest dialogue about an important issue.<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> Donovan Arnold<BR>> >> <BR>> >> --- On Thu, 2/17/11,
Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com> wrote:<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe@gmail.com><BR>> >>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth
Care . . .<BR>> >> To: "lfalen" <lfalen@turbonet.com><BR>>
>> Cc: "Vision 2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>, "Donovan Arnold"
<donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>> >> Date: Thursday, February
17, 2011, 9:39 PM<BR>> >> <BR>> >> It is a counterexample to
Donovan's argument. <BR>> >> <BR>> >> In a counterexample,
what you do is you offer an argument with the same structure as the one you are
critiquing but with an obviously false conclusion. <BR>> >> <BR>>
>> That shows that the premises of the first argument (Donovan's in this
case) don't support the conclusion.<BR>> >> <BR>> >> The
illogic of my argument, which you admit, illustrates the the illogic of
Donovan's argument. Thanks for pointing that out!<BR>> >> <BR>>
>> But don't believe me. I've only been teaching logic for 20
years!<BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >> On
Feb 17, 2011, at 12:12 PM, lfalen <lfalen@turbonet.com> wrote:<BR>>
>> <BR>> >> > You teach logic. Where is the logic in this
statement?<BR>> >> > Roger<BR>> >> > -----Original
message-----<BR>> >> > From: Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe@gmail.com<BR>> >> > Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 07:56:59
-0800<BR>> >> > To: Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com<BR>> >> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<BR>> >>
> <BR>> >> >> I don't see anything in the constitution about
the Internet.<BR>> >> >> <BR>> >> >> Therefore,
Donovan's last post is unconstitutional.<BR>> >> >> <BR>>
>> >> <BR>> >> >> <BR>> >> >> On Feb
16, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com>
wrote:<BR>> >> >> <BR>> >> >>> "The state
government can compel you to buy automobile liability insurance if you chose to
own and to operate a motor vehicle. "--Art Deco <BR>> >> >>>
<BR>> >> >>> This is a completely different situation on
several levels;<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>>
First, there is a difference between a state requiring you to demonstrate while
operating a heavy piece of equipment you have the means to pay for any damage to
property, versus that of the federal government requiring you with buy a
particular product.<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>>
I can escape the insurance requirement in Idaho by either moving out of state,
choosing not to drive, or I can save up enough money to demonstrate I can pay
for damages i may incur while operating a piece of heavy equipment on public
highways and roadways.<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> Federal Mandated Health Insurance I cannot do the same thing. I
cannot move out of state. I cannot disown or park my body (I am stuck with). And
I can never demonstrate that I have enough money to pay for reasonable health
problems, and that could be in the millions very easily.<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> And of course there is the
Constitutional issue that it reserves all rights not listed in it to the states.
I don't see anything in the constitution giving the Federal Government the
authority to require people to buy a particular product. Although I think the
government can get around this issue in the same way as it did in 80s by
changing the drinking age to 21, forcing the states to comply by withholding
federal dollars.<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>> I
personally think it is a bad idea to have the federal government be able to make
you buy something. Especially when its goal of providing health care to everyone
will not succeed this way. The only way to get everyone to have access to health
care is to tax people and provide it, just like every other service the
government provides.<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> Donovan Arnold <BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Art Deco <deco@moscow.com>
wrote:<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>> From: Art
Deco <deco@moscow.com><BR>> >> >>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . .
.<BR>> >> >>> To: "Vision 2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> >> >>> Date: Wednesday,
February 16, 2011, 3:36 PM<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> The state government can compel you to buy automobile liability
insurance if you chose to own and to operate a motor vehicle. The courts have
ruled that this is a legitimate power of the government. It will be interesting
to see how this issue as it relates to health insurance is argued in the
courts.<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>> w.<BR>>
>> >>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >> >>>
From: Donovan Arnold<BR>> >> >>> To: Moscow Vision 2020 ; Tom
Hansen<BR>> >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 3:07
PM<BR>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 -
State Sovereignty - FederalHealth Care . . .<BR>> >> >>>
<BR>> >> >>> I have to agree that the government does not have
the authority to compel you to participate in buying health Insurance or any
product or service from a private company. Especially when it is such a rip-off
and there is no regulation on what these insurance companies can collectively
decide they want you to pay once you are required by to purchase it from them.
They could charge $500-$1500 a month and you would have to pay it. If they
wanted to tax you and provide access to health care that would be within their
legal authority because that is what the government does.<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> However, I don't agree with the
wording of the bill that employers should be allowed to get away with not
offering any health insurance without raising their minimum paid wages. You
cannot afford health insurance on $7.25 an hour. Hell, you cannot even afford
quality health insurance at $12.50 an hour working 50 hours a week when the
government is skimming 40 cents on every dollar you sweat blood and tears to
make. Employers should have some basic responsibility for the welfare of their
employers especially when many employers put their employees at risk for lots of
health problems. Working conditions need to be beyond third world standards here
in Idaho. Idahoan workers deserve at least this much. Too bad the Governor of
Idaho and the majority of the current legislature doesn't agree.<BR>>
>> >>> <BR>> >> >>> Donovan Arnold<BR>>
>> >>> <BR>> >> >>> --- On Wed, 2/16/11, Tom
Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:<BR>> >> >>> <BR>>
>> >>> From: Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com><BR>>
>> >>> Subject: [Vision2020] House Bill 117 - State Sovereignty -
Federal Health Care . . .<BR>> >> >>> To: "Moscow Vision 2020"
<vision2020@moscow.com><BR>> >> >>> Date: Wednesday,
February 16, 2011, 11:43 AM<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> Has passed the Idaho House by a vote of 49-20.<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>>
http://moscowcares.com/idaho/2011/HB0117_020911.htm<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> Tom Hansen<BR>> >>
>>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>> "The
Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<BR>>
>> >>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> - Unknown<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>>
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> >> >>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>>
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> >> >>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>> -----Inline Attachment
Follows-----<BR>> >> >>> <BR>> >> >>>
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>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>>
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> >> >>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> <BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>>
>> >>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>> >> >>> http://www.fsr.net <BR>> >> >>>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >> >>>
=======================================================<BR>> >>
>> <BR>> >> >> <BR>> >> <BR>> >>
=======================================================<BR>> >> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> >> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>> >> http://www.fsr.net
<BR>> >> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >>
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