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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>Roger,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>Here is your posting. How is what I said
you said not a quote?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>w.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Wayne [sic]<BR>You should give it a rest. I chose not to continue with the
one upmanship [sic] on whether there were more objectionable statements on the
lef [sic] or the right because I found it childish. It was like two kids
squabbling. Each saying "He started it." Every time one brings up
objectionable comments by the left. [sic] The response is to throw in all
kinds of lunatics who are nether left or right. <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000
size=5>All nut case according to you are on the right.</FONT></STRONG> We have
enough people like Rex Rammel ( who is boarder [sic] line), [sic] with out
[sic] taking on any more. Most of the nut cases are nether left or right
[sic] and who should care about which side has the most [sic]. I am not into the
numbers game. <BR>As far as you list goes I do see that much to object to on its
face. My problem is one of time. I do object to your insinuations in number 3. I
will throw it back to you to back up that insinuation. I do not think that you
know what a lie is. We will see. As to your sick chicken comment, I thing [sic]
a more appropriate analogy would be a pack of dogs or a gang of
hoodlums.<BR>Roger<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lfalen@turbonet.com href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com">lfalen</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> ; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, February 15, 2011 3:29
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that
Jared guy and mental health</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Maybe you should learn to read I did not say that as a quote. I
said " All nut cases according to you are on the right. That is an opinion,
not a quote. I will admit it probably a bit of an exaggeration, but probably
not by much. Is that the best you can come up with?<BR>Roger<BR>-----Original
message-----<BR>From: "Art Deco" <A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011
15:22:49 -0800<BR>To: "Vision 2020" <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR><BR>> Are you
unable to read?<BR>> <BR>> You claim I said: "All nut case
according to you are on the right."<BR>> <BR>> I have never posted this
on V2020;<BR>> <BR>> If I have then show me where, else you are a
transparent liar and hardly worth dialoguing with<BR>> <BR>>
w.<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>> From:
lfalen <BR>> To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020 <BR>>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 12:14 PM<BR>> Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> You have implied that I lied. Please play by your own
rules and show me where.<BR>> Roger<BR>>
-----Original message-----<BR>> From: "Art Deco" <A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR>> Date:
Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:44:44 -0800<BR>> To: "Vision 2020" <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
<BR>> > Roger writes:<BR>> >
<BR>> > "I do not think that you know what a lie
is."<BR>> > <BR>> > He then says I said
"All nut case according to you are on the right."<BR>> >
<BR>> > Show me where I said that,
Roger.<BR>> > <BR>> > If you can't, then
admit, along with the other accusations you've made about what I said of which
you offer no proof that I said, that you are the fabulist.<BR>>
> <BR>> > w.<BR>> > -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> > From: lfalen
<BR>> > To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
<BR>> > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 11:32
AM<BR>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re:
that Jared guy and mental health<BR>> > <BR>>
> <BR>> > Wayne<BR>>
> You should give it a rest. I chose not to continue with the
one upmanship on whether there were more objectionable statements on the lef
or the right because I found it childish. It was like two kids squabbling.
Each saying "He started it." Every time one brings up objectionable
comments by the left. The response is to throw in all kinds of lunatics who
are nether left or right. All nut case according to you are on the right. We
have enough people like Rex Rammel( who is boarder line), with out taking on
any more. Most of the nut cases are nether left or right and who should care
about which side has the most. I am not into the numbers game.
<BR>> > As far as you list goes I do see that
much to object to on its face. My problem is one of time. I do object to your
insinuations in number 3. I will throw it back to you to back up that
insinuation. I do not think that you know what a lie is. We will see.
<BR>> > As to your sick chicken comment, I thing
a more appropriate analogy would be a pack of dogs or a gang of
hoodlums.<BR>> > Roger<BR>> >
<BR>> > -----Original
message-----<BR>> > From: "Art Deco" <A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:07:25 -0800<BR>>
> To: "Vision 2020" <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental
health<BR>> > <BR>> > >
Roger,<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > Is this the way they do things down to the Genesee
Grange and Teabaggers Klatch (and the Genesee Elementary School
playground): make insupportable statements and accusations, and then
refuse to support them by saying "I doan hafto" in a an indignant, but hardly
justifiable huff? How do you think this helps to discuss
issues?<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > If you are truly interested in resolving issues here or
elsewhere and not just being a gadfly or cheerleader, please tell how to
resolve or to progress toward a resolution of issues other than: [Note:
these are not my rules but the most commonly used steps in issue
resolution.]<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > 1. Defining terms sufficiently, when
necessary, so that each side clearly knows and agrees on what the issues,
alleged facts/probabilities, and arguments mean and are.<BR>>
> > <BR>> > >
2. Using valid argument forms, pointing out, when necessary,
where the opposite side is not using valid arguments and
why.<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > 3. Not telling lies or making absurdly
gross exaggerations.<BR>> > >
<BR>> > > 4. Where needed,
or when requested, giving sources for alleged "factual"
information.<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > 5. Understanding the probabilistic
nature of knowledge, and the problems inherent in supporting value
statements.<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > <BR>> > > Please tell
us which of the above you object to and why. Then tell us what you would
do differently and why. Please tells us explicitly in clear language,
and why, yours is a better system/approach to progressing toward the
truth/resolution.<BR>> > >
<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > w.<BR>> > >
<BR>> > > ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> > > From: lfalen
<BR>> > > To: Art Deco ; Vision
2020 <BR>> > > Sent: Wednesday,
February 09, 2011 10:34 AM<BR>> >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental
health<BR>> > > <BR>>
> > <BR>> > >
You can dictate all the terms that you want. That does not mean that I have to
play by your rules or jump through all kinds of hoops just to satisfy
you.<BR>> > >
Roger<BR>> > > -----Original
message-----<BR>> > > From: "Art
Deco" <A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:32:16
-0800<BR>> > > To: "Vision 2020"
<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that
Jared guy and mental health<BR>> > >
<BR>> > > >
Roger:<BR>> > > >
<BR>> > > >
1. Show me where I posted erroneous or false
information. If you can't, then ...<BR>> >
> > <BR>> > >
> 2. Where did Jeff refute any erroroneous data that I
posted?<BR>> > > >
<BR>> > > > Reread 3 below
again. How does it apply here?<BR>> >
> > <BR>> > >
> I notice also that you did not answer the questions
posed.<BR>> > > >
<BR>> > > >
w.<BR>> > > >
----- Original Message ----- <BR>> >
> > From: lfalen <BR>>
> > > To: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
<BR>> > > > Sent:
Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:52 AM<BR>> >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that
Jared guy and mental health<BR>> >
> > <BR>> > >
> <BR>> > > > I
do not have that much of a problem with most f your list. I think that you
violate number 3 as much as anyone. On number 4 , it would be good to
substantiate what one says. There are some problems here. You throw out a
bunch of statistics. Every one should know that statistics can be and are
frequently skewed. This is done by leaving out relevant information and only
taking into consideration a portion of the facts. This allows one to
come up with an erroneous conclusion. My computer is old and slow. It I were
to try and find substantiating data every time you ask for it would take me
forever. I do not have that kind of time. I have a few other things to do that
look up data just to satisfy you. You would just come up with more biased data
to support your position. Frankly a am a little fed up with your egotistical,
holier than thou attitude. Jeff does a good job of refuting the erroneous data
put out by you and Nick. He is better able to do so than I am a!<BR> nd
f!<BR>> or t!<BR>> >
he m!<BR>> > > ost
!<BR>> > > >
part I<BR>> > > >
will leave it up to him.<BR>> > >
> Roger<BR>> > >
> -----Original message-----<BR>>
> > > From: "Art Deco" <A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011
10:05:34 -0800<BR>> > >
> To: "Vision 2020" <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
[SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
> > > <BR>> >
> > > So, Roger, tell us of another approach
to resolving disputes other than:<BR>> >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > 1. Defining terms
sufficiently, when necessary, so that each side clearly knows and agrees on
what the issues, alleged facts/probabilities, and arguments mean and
are.<BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > >
> 2. Using valid argument forms, pointing out, when
necessary, where the opposite side is not using valid arguments and
why.<BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > >
> 3. Not telling lies or making absurdly gross
exaggerations.<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > 4. Where needed, or when requested,
giving sources for alleged "factual" information.<BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > 5.
Understanding the probabilistic nature of knowledge, and the problems inherent
in supporting value statements.<BR>> >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > Please tell us which of the above you
object to and why. Then tell us what you would do differently and
why. Please tells us explicitly in clear language, and why, yours is a
better system/approach to progressing toward the
truth/resolution.<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > I can see why you and Crabtree don't like the above
approach to issue discussion/resolution. It put both of you at a
formidable disadvantage.<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > Wayne A. Fox<BR>> >
> > > 1009 Karen Lane<BR>>
> > > > PO Box
9421<BR>> > > >
> Moscow, ID 83843<BR>> >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > <A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > > 208
882-7975<BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> > > >
> From: lfalen <BR>> >
> > > To: the lockshop ; Reggie
Holmquist <BR>> > >
> > Cc: Vision 2020 <BR>>
> > > > Sent:
Thursday, February 03, 2011 5:27 PM<BR>> >
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
[SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > Keep up
the good work. I am out of here until next week. You do a better job of
dealing with these guys than I do. If you have ideas that are different than
theirs, then you are not responding with any meaningful dialogue. I quess that
it is hopeless to try and engage then them on a civil plain. Wayne is
real good at putting someone down that takes a different approach that he
wants you to. You just arn't arguing within the proper
framework.<BR>> > >
> > Roger <BR>> >
> > > -----Original
message-----<BR>> > >
> > From: "the lockshop" <A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A><BR>>
> > > > Date: Thu,
03 Feb 2011 12:24:53 -0800<BR>> >
> > > To: "Reggie Holmquist" <A
href="mailto:reggieholmquist@u.boisestate.edu">reggieholmquist@u.boisestate.edu</A><BR>>
> > > > Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental
health<BR>> > > >
> <BR>> > > >
> > Dude? Seriously? Maintaining my credibility with the
surfer/skate boyz segment of the forum isn't as high up on my priority list as
it used to be.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > g<BR>>
> > > >
> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>
> > > >
> From: Reggie Holmquist <BR>> >
> > > > To: the
lockshop <BR>> > >
> > > Cc: Art Deco ; Vision 2020
<BR>> > > >
> > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 9:55
AM<BR>> > > >
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that
Jared guy and mental health<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > "I, on the other hand think it would be good
if you gave it a rest."<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > Or
what? You'll call him "creepy" again? Or perhaps tell him to "go
pound sand"? You've lost credibility, dude.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > -Reggie<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:49 AM, the lockshop
<<A href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A>>
wrote:<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> "dysfunctional disclarity"<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > Dave Barry thinks that this
would be a good name for a neo-punk band.<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> I, on the other hand think it would be good if
you gave it a rest.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> g<BR>> >
> > >
> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> > > >
> > From: Art Deco
<BR>> > > >
> > To: Vision 2020
<BR>> > > >
> > Sent: Thursday,
February 03, 2011 8:17 AM<BR>> >
> > >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re:
that Jared guy and mental health<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > The thesis is that
you are not interested in constructive dialog.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > Your response gives
more than ample evidence of that. And also more than ample evidence of
dysfunctional disclarity.<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> w.<BR>>
> > > >
> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>> > > >
> > From:
Gary Crabtree <BR>> > >
> >
> To: Art Deco ; Vision
2020 <BR>> > > >
> > Sent:
Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:57 PM<BR>> >
> > >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020]
[SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> "Either define "left" and
"right" or enumerate those on the list that you consider to be "right" and
"left" so that people will not have to attempt to reach the foggy recesses of
your mind in order to decide who's who in your opinion. Otherwise, most
will think you are pulling a Roger Falen by refusing to respond to an issue in
any meaningful terms except by repeating yourself using different words and
syntax."<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> While I find you mildly
unpleasant and not a little creepy, I don't currently believe you are stupid.
Do you really still imagine that insisting that I respond to to your demands
in precisely the manner that will please you is a productive use of your time?
Do you actually believe that I am concerned with what you and your mythical
"most" are thinking? If so, a drastic revision of my opinion is in
order.<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> "I think that you are
cravenly refusing to define or enumerate "right" and "left" because even in
that dark back room of The Lock Shop you know that there is vast disagreement
among those you claim to be on the left on this list on some very fundamental
issues such as abortion, the death penalty, health care, first amendment
rights, gun ownership rights, religious freedom and truth, the bailouts and
other economic issues, educational reform, drug policy, the desirability of
unions, possible solutions to the immigration problems, etc. "
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> Oh no! Us cartoon
characters in our dark back rooms prefer to believe in monolithic stereotypes
that never vary from the role to which they are assigned. To
wit:<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> The "right" = six gun
toting, God fearing, courageous, generous types who love America, Mom, and
apple pie and feel truly sorry for drug ingesting hippies who refuse to eat
red meat and have questionable hygiene. These stalwarts gravitate to
professions such as astronaut, super hero/costumed crime fighter, bronco
busting, bull riding cowboy of a decidedly non-brokeback persuasion, and
double ought spy.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> The "left" = squirrelly,
tofu munching, dope smoking, atheist gas bags who march and wave placards in
homogenous herds and have never met a criminal, tree, or illegal alien that
they have not immediately wanted to coddle, hug, or provide welfare benefits
to. If they can be bothered to arise from their cannabis and/or narcotic
induced stupor to perform any semi-useful labor at all they will normally be
lawyers, collage professors (liberal arts), bureaucrats, interpretive dancers,
and mimes<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Does that satisfy your
curious lust for definition?<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> Something, something,
something...<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Some hastily tossed off
flippant response. Is it becoming obvious that boredom is <BR>>
> > > >
> beginning to set in?
Gosh, I hope not.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Blah, blah, reading
suggestions I'll immediately ignore, blah...<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> >
zzzzz...<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> "It's time to man up and
either respond to the issues in a way that would promote
understanding/clarification and possible resolutions, or man up and admit that
you are just another propagandist whose goal is not truth, but attempts at
persuasion exalting your personal ideals."<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > Or what?
you'll hold your breath, kick your little feets and pound your teeny widdle
fists? Listen, I get it. I really do. You want me to take this forum more
seriously. You want me to take you seriously. You want me to read the books
you recommend. You want me to discuss what you want to discuss and you want me
to discuss it in a manner that is pleasing to you. I'm reading you five by
five. It pains me to have to tell you that there no chance your dreams are
going to come true in this regard. For the last time, here's the deal. You may
feel free to complain to your little hearts content but, I write what I write
for reasons that are my own. Demanding that I do something differently or
insisting that I respond to you in some specific way is a waste of your
precious remaining time on earth. Now go pound sand.<BR>>
> > > >
>
<BR>> > > >
> >
g<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> From: Art Deco
<BR>> > > >
> > Sent:
Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:30 AM<BR>> >
> > >
> To: Vision 2020
<BR>> > > >
> > Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental
health<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Crabtree
writes:<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> 'I don't really believe
that there is any real lack of clarity on this list as to where the "left"
leaves off and the "right" kicks in."'<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> Either define "left" and
"right" or enumerate those on the list that you consider to be "right" and
"left" so that people will not have to attempt to reach the foggy recesses of
your mind in order to decide who's who in your opinion. Otherwise, most
will think you are pulling a Roger Falen by refusing to respond to an issue in
any meaningful terms except by repeating yourself using different words and
syntax. <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> I think that you are
cravenly refusing to define or enumerate "right" and "left" because even in
that dark back room of The Lock Shop you know that there is vast disagreement
among those you claim to be on the left on this list on some very fundamental
issues such as abortion, the death penalty, health care, first amendment
rights, gun ownership rights, religious freedom and truth, the bailouts and
other economic issues, educational reform, drug policy, the desirability of
unions, possible solutions to the immigration problems, etc.
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> And hence, any meaningful
characterization of "left" and right" would exclude or make very fuzzy their
inclusion in the list many you apparently think of as leftists. That
this is so is exhibited by many prior discussions on this list. So, to
deny such is either dishonest and/or cowardly. [Google:
"Over-simplification", "Over-generalization", and
Dishonesty".]<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> 'Also, the definition of
"hate speech" is absolutely clear. It's pretty much anything the left doesn't
want to hear from the right. Hate speech is defined by its source not its
content.'<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> So if someone on the
right says "the economy will do better under conservative leadership," and
someone you allege is on the left disagrees, that's hate speech?
What rot. Again you offer no reasonable criteria to determine what hate
speech is except that it is anything one particular [the "left"] group doesn't
like about what another [the "right"] says. That makes almost any
political discussion of opposing views hate speech.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> >
See: The Fallacy of Persuasive Definition: <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition</A><BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > It is
not surprising that you again refuse to participate in a meaningful discussion
of the issues. That is your style and fits your limited worldview from
the window of the backroom of your business. Your definition of "hate
speech" is so prejudicial, and it's lack of clarity greatly amplified given
the lack of precision of the meaning of "right" and "left" that it tells
readers a lot about you, but not much about the reality outside of
you.<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> "The never-ending
insistence that everything evil emanates from the conservative end of the
spectrum and that the libs are long suffering saints is hogwash and an endless
round of competing lists will do nothing to change that
fact."<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> Another gross
distortion/lie/exaggeration. Who one the list said anything like
that? Some have said that violent rhetoric and hate speech is more
common from pundits on the right, but I do not see that anyone claimed that
such practices where exclusive to the right. So starting with a grossly
false O'Reillyism, you then negate the possibility of anyone giving any kind
of evidence that would might clarify or give weight to one side or the other
on the issue. What a dunce-like position!<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > Although
you falsely accused Reggie of being foolish because you disagreed with his
characterization of three people on his prior long list, and although your
alleged counterexamples are open to reasonable questions such as Andreas Schou
has raised, it is you that appears to be foolish, if not dishonest and
cowardly when you:<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> [1] Refuse to define in
any meaningful way what you are talking about, <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > [2] Use
really cockeyed, prejudicial persuasive definitions when you do deign to
define terms, and <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> [3] Tell bald-faced lies
about other's positions.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Perhaps your
self-education might benefit from a concentrated study of Wesley Salmon's
concise, but incisive book Logic. Or a careful reading of Proofiness by
Charles Seife might help you deal with some of your problems of
over-generalization and over-simplification.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > It's
time to man up and either respond to the issues in a way that would promote
understanding/clarification and possible resolutions, or man up and admit that
you are just another propagandist whose goal is not truth, but attempts at
persuasion exalting your personal ideals.<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> w.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>> > >
> >
> From: Gary
Crabtree <BR>> > >
> >
> To: Art Deco
; Vision 2020 <BR>> > >
> >
> Sent:
Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:48 PM<BR>> >
> > >
> Subject: Re:
[SPAM]Re: [Vision2020] that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> Interesting.
You sound like the kid on the playground who always wanted to tell everyone
else what the game should be, define the minutia the games rules, and then
become pouty when his expectations weren't met with regard to being deferred
to in all matters. Life can be a disappointment for kids like
that.<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> I don't
really believe that there is any real lack of clarity on this list as to where
the "left" leaves off and the "right" kicks in. (I don't consider myself a
proper member of the "right" but to make this easier for you we'll pretend
it's the case) The difficulty arises, at the very least in the most current
discussion, when those on the left want to pretend to be Sunday's child where
it comes to acts of violence and political discussion that is less then
demure. The never-ending insistence that everything evil emanates from the
conservative end of the spectrum and that the libs are long suffering saints
is hogwash and an endless round of competing lists will do nothing to change
that fact.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Also, the
definition of "hate speech" is absolutely clear. It's pretty much anything the
left doesn't want to hear from the right. Hate speech is defined by its source
not its content. When the same sentiments are expressed from a liberal
perspective it becomes passionate political discourse and a sacred first
amendment principal. >From the right, pure incitement to violence (even
when none was voiced) to be quashed by any and every means possible. Violent
speech is funny in that when a person hailing from the "right" talks of
targeting a district, defeating an opponent, or quotes the founding fathers
the remarks are an unequivocal, bold neon colored calls for assassination.
When the "left" explicitly hope for the death of Sarah Palin and/or her
children, pray for Dick Cheney's heart to give out, and make big budget
Hollywood movies glorifying the murder of GWB, the speech is apparently
translucent in the lack of notice it receives.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
> I hope that
this gives you "a clear and distinct idea" on where this cartoon character
stands on the matter at hand. Now, if you'd be so kind, could you go into a
little more detail with regard to my education? There is very little that I
find more fascinating then to hear the playground mope expound at length on
the topic of what he imagines my background to be.<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
>
g<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
> From: Art
Deco <BR>> > > >
>
> Sent:
Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:35 PM<BR>> >
> > >
> To: Vision
2020 <BR>> > > >
>
> Subject:
[SPAM]Re: [Vision2020] that Jared guy and mental health<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> A lesson to
Reggie, et al:<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> This dispute
is on Vision 2020 is driven by at least two things:<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
>
1. The lack of anywhere near agreement on the definitions of
"right" v. "left" and "hate speech".<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
>
2. The apparent inability and unwillingness of
Falen/Crabtree to support their positions with meaningful arguments.
With Roger, it is the apparent inability to understand what an argument is;
with Crabtree, it is the long demonstrated unwillingness to engage in
meaningful dialogue on any subject where his basic beliefs may be threatened
by facts and/or alternative values.<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> Reggie:
When you put the list at issue together, you offered evidence. One would
expect those holding an opposing views would offer a different list of at
least the same magnitude. Both Crabtree and Falen are unwilling to do
so. Forget meaningful dialogue.<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> At some
point, maybe one side or the other would offer more clarifying definitions so
that the dispute could be better conducted by referring meaningful
evidence. Don't look to Falen or Crabtree for that either. It is
too threatening.<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> I repeat the
following without much hope that either Falen or Crabtree will alter their
self-satisfying, but futile, churlish behavior:<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
> 'It may be
wise to remember in a discussion of values [or any other subject] the
following paraphrase of a quotation from English Philosopher John
Locke:<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> "When
comparing two ideas, it is necessary to have a clear and distinct idea of
each."'<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> >
> Or its modern
statement:<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> "When
comparing two statements or theories, the clearer, less vague and ambiguous
statement(s) of and definitions used in each, the better the chance of
meaningfully determining the truth, or in the case of values, the correct
application, or least discovering the roots of agreement or
disagreement."<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> Over many
months of reading Crabtree in action on V2020 I have thought that he might be
the object of a possible Far Side cartoon whose caption would be "When
self-education goes horribly wrong."<BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
>
> Wayne A.
Fox<BR>> > > >
>
> 1009 Karen
Lane<BR>> > > >
>
> PO Box
9421<BR>> > > >
>
> Moscow,
ID 83843<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> <A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > >
> 208
882-7975<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> ----- Original Message -----
<BR>> > > >
> > From: lfalen
<BR>> > > >
> > To: Reggie Holmquist
<BR>> > > >
> > Cc: vision 2020
<BR>> > > >
> > Sent: Tuesday,
February 01, 2011 10:52 AM<BR>> >
> > >
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] that Jared
guy and mental health<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> I hope that you had fun putting
together this list, some of which it would really be a stretch to call hate
speech or necessarily from the the right. It would almost seem that anything
you disagree with is hate speech or right wing. I don't much care if it is
exactly equal from both sides. suffice it to say that there is plenty on both.
I am not going to go tit for tat with you.<BR>>
> > > >
> Roger<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > >
=======================================================<BR>>
> > > >
> List services made available by First Step
Internet, <BR>> > >
> > > serving
the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>>
> > > >
>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A>
<BR>> > > >
>
>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > >
>
======================================================= <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > >
=======================================================<BR>>
> > > >
> List services made available by First Step
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> > > serving
the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR>>
> > > >
>
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<BR>> > > >
>
>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > >
>
======================================================= <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > >
> No virus found in this incoming
message.<BR>> > >
> > > Checked by AVG
- <A href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > Version: 9.0.872 / Virus
Database: 271.1.1/3419 - Release Date: 02/02/11 11:34:00<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> >
=======================================================<BR>>
> > > >
> List services made available by First Step
Internet,<BR>> > >
> > > serving
the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>>
> > > >
>
<A href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A><BR>>
> > > >
>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > >
>
=======================================================<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
> -- <BR>> > >
> > > There is a theory which
states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why
it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more
bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has
already happened. <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > Douglas
Adams<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > >
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>
> > > > >
<BR>> > > >
> > <BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > No virus
found in this incoming message.<BR>> >
> > > > Checked by
AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A> <BR>>
> > > >
> Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3420 - Release
Date: 02/02/11 23:34:00<BR>> > >
> > > <BR>> >
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > >
=======================================================<BR>>
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services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>>
> > > >
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>> > > >
>
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<BR>> > > >
>
<A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>>
> > > >
=======================================================<BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > > <BR>>
> > > <BR>> >
> > <BR>> > >
<BR>> > > <BR>> >
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