Maybe we now have the answer to the question, How do you deal with Crabtree?<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Art Deco <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="padding-left: 10px; padding-right: 10px; padding-top: 15px;" bgcolor="#ffffff" name="Compose message area">
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">The thesis is that you are not interested in
constructive dialog.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Your response gives more than ample evidence of
that. And also more than ample evidence of dysfunctional
disclarity.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">w.</font></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b>
<a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">Gary
Crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a title="deco@moscow.com" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">Art Deco</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 02, 2011 7:57
PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that
Jared guy and mental health</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">
<div><font face="Times New Roman"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2">"Either
define "left" and "right" or enumerate those on the list that you consider to
be "right" and "left" so that people will not have to attempt to reach
the foggy recesses of your mind in order to decide who's who in your
opinion. </font><font size="2">Otherwise, most will think you are pulling
a Roger Falen by refusing to respond to an issue in any meaningful terms
except by repeating yourself using different words and
syntax."</font></font></font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">While I find you mildly unpleasant and not a little
creepy, I don't currently believe you are stupid. Do you really still imagine
that insisting that I respond to to your demands in precisely the
manner that will please you is a productive use of your time? Do you
actually believe that I am concerned with what you and your mythical "most"
are thinking? If so, a drastic revision of my opinion is in
order.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman" size="2">"I think that you are
cravenly refusing to define or enumerate "right" and "left" because even in
that dark back room of The Lock Shop you know that there is vast disagreement
among those you claim to be on the left on this list on some very fundamental
issues such as abortion, the death penalty, health care, first amendment
rights, gun ownership rights, religious freedom and truth, the bailouts and
other economic issues, educational reform, drug policy, the desirability
of unions, possible solutions to the immigration problems, etc. "
</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Oh no! Us cartoon characters in our dark back rooms prefer to believe in
monolithic stereotypes that never vary from the role to which they are
assigned. To wit:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The "right" = six gun toting, God fearing, courageous,
generous types who love America, Mom, and apple pie and feel truly sorry
for drug ingesting hippies who refuse to eat red meat and have
questionable hygiene. These stalwarts gravitate to professions such as
astronaut, super hero/costumed crime fighter, bronco busting, bull
riding cowboy of a decidedly non-brokeback persuasion, and double ought
spy.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>The "left" = squirrelly, tofu munching, dope smoking, atheist gas
bags who march and wave placards in homogenous herds and have never met a
criminal, tree, or illegal alien that they have not immediately wanted to
coddle, hug, or provide welfare benefits to. If they can be bothered to
arise from their cannabis and/or narcotic induced stupor to perform
any semi-useful labor at all they will normally be lawyers, collage
professors (liberal arts), bureaucrats, interpretive dancers, and mimes</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Does that satisfy your curious lust for definition?</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman">Something, something,
something...</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman"></font> </div>
<div>Some hastily tossed off flippant response. Is it becoming obvious that
boredom is </div>
<div>beginning to set in? Gosh, I hope not.</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman">Blah, blah, reading
suggestions I'll immediately ignore, blah...</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman"></font> </div>
<div>zzzzz...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Times New Roman" size="2">"It's time to man up
and either respond to the issues in a way that would promote
understanding/clarification and possible resolutions, or man up and admit that
you are just another propagandist whose goal is not truth, but attempts at
persuasion exalting your personal ideals."</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Or what? you'll hold your breath, kick your little feets and pound your
teeny widdle fists? Listen, I get it. I really do. You want me to take this
forum more seriously. You want me to take you seriously. You want me to read
the books you recommend. You want me to discuss what you want to discuss and
you want me to discuss it in a manner that is pleasing to you. I'm reading you
five by five. It pains me to have to tell you that there no chance your dreams
are going to come true in this regard. For the last time, here's the deal. You
may feel free to complain to your little hearts content but, I write what
I write for reasons that are my own. Demanding that I do something differently
or insisting that I respond to you in some specific way is a waste of your
precious remaining time on earth. Now go pound sand.</div>
<div> <font color="#000000" face="Calibri" size="3"> </font></div>
<div>g</div></div></div></font></div></div>
<div style="font: 10pt Tahoma;">
<div><br></div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="deco@moscow.com" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">Art Deco</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 02, 2011 8:30 AM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] [SPAM]Re: that Jared guy and mental
health</div></div></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Crabtree writes:</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2">'I don't really believe that there is any real
lack of clarity on this list as to where the "left" leaves off and the "right"
kicks in."'</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Either define "left" and "right" or enumerate those on the
list that you consider to be "right" and "left" so that people will not
have to attempt to reach the foggy recesses of your mind in order to decide
who's who in your opinion. </font><font size="2">Otherwise, most will
think you are pulling a Roger Falen by refusing to respond to an issue in any
meaningful terms except by repeating yourself using different words and
syntax. </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">I think that you are cravenly refusing to define or
enumerate "right" and "left" because even in that dark back room of The Lock
Shop you know that there is vast disagreement among those you claim to be on
the left on this list on some very fundamental issues such as abortion, the
death penalty, health care, first amendment rights, gun ownership rights,
religious freedom and truth, the bailouts and other economic issues,
educational reform, drug policy, the desirability of unions, possible
solutions to the immigration problems, etc. </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">And hence, any meaningful characterization of "left" and
right" would exclude or make very fuzzy their inclusion in the list many you
apparently think of as leftists. That this is so is exhibited by many
prior discussions on this list. So, to deny such is either
dishonest and/or cowardly. [Google: "Over-simplification",
"Over-generalization", and Dishonesty".]</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2">'Also, the definition of "hate speech" is
absolutely clear. It's pretty much anything the left doesn't want to hear from
the right. Hate speech is defined by its source not its content.'</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">So if someone on the right says "the economy will do better
under conservative leadership," and someone you allege is on the left
disagrees, that's hate speech? What rot. Again you offer no
reasonable criteria to determine what hate speech is except that it is
<b>anything</b> one <b>particular</b> [the "left"] group
doesn't like about what another [the "right"] says. That makes almost
any political discussion of opposing views hate speech.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">See: The Fallacy of Persuasive Definition: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">It is not surprising that you again refuse to participate in
a meaningful discussion of the issues. That is your style and fits your
limited worldview from the window of the backroom of your business. Your
definition of "hate speech" is so prejudicial, and it's lack of clarity
greatly amplified given the lack of precision of the meaning of "right"
and "left" that it tells readers a lot about you, but not much about the
reality outside of you.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2">"The never-ending insistence that
<b><font size="4">everything evil</font></b> emanates from the
conservative end of the spectrum and that the libs are long suffering saints
is hogwash and an endless round of competing lists will do nothing to change
that fact."</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Another gross distortion/lie/exaggeration. Who one the
list said anything like that? Some have said that violent rhetoric
and hate speech is more common from pundits on the right, but I do not see
that anyone claimed that such practices where exclusive to the right. So
starting with a grossly false O'Reillyism, you then negate the possibility of
anyone giving any kind of evidence that would might clarify or give weight to
one side or the other on the issue. What a dunce-like
position!</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Although you falsely accused Reggie of being foolish because
you disagreed with his characterization of three people on his prior long
list, and although your alleged counterexamples are open to reasonable
questions such as Andreas Schou has raised, it is you that appears to
be foolish, if not dishonest and cowardly when you:</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">[1] Refuse to define in any meaningful way what you are
talking about, </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">[2] Use really cockeyed, prejudicial persuasive definitions
when you do deign to define terms, and </font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">[3] Tell bald-faced lies about other's
positions.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Perhaps your self-education might benefit from a
concentrated study of Wesley Salmon's concise, but incisive book
<i>Logic</i>. Or a careful reading of <i>Proofiness</i> by Charles
Seife might help you deal with some of your problems of
over-generalization and over-simplification.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">It's time to man up and either respond to the issues in a
way that would promote understanding/clarification and possible resolutions,
or man up and admit that you are just another propagandist whose goal is not
truth, but attempts at persuasion exalting your personal
ideals.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">w.</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b>
<a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com" target="_blank">Gary
Crabtree</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a title="deco@moscow.com" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">Art Deco</a> ; <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:48
PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [SPAM]Re: [Vision2020]
that Jared guy and mental health</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">Interesting. You sound like the
kid on the playground who always wanted to tell everyone else what the game
should be, define the minutia the games rules, and then become
pouty when his expectations weren't met with regard to being deferred to in
all matters. Life can be a disappointment for kids like that.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font><font color="#000000"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">I don't really believe that there
is any real lack of clarity on this list as to where the "left" leaves off
and the "right" kicks in. (I don't consider myself a proper member of
the "right" but to make this easier for you we'll pretend it's the case) The
difficulty arises, at the very least in the most current discussion, when
those on the left want to pretend to be Sunday's child where it comes to
acts of violence and political discussion that is less then demure. The
never-ending insistence that everything evil emanates from the conservative
end of the spectrum and that the libs are long suffering saints is hogwash
and an endless round of competing lists will do nothing to change that
fact.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">Also, the definition of "hate
speech" is absolutely clear. It's pretty much anything the left doesn't want
to hear from the right. Hate speech is defined by its source not its
content. When the same sentiments are expressed from a liberal perspective
it becomes passionate political discourse and a sacred first amendment
principal. From the right, pure incitement to violence (even when none was
voiced) to be quashed by any and every means possible. Violent speech
is funny in that when a person hailing from the "right" talks of targeting a
district, defeating an opponent, or quotes the founding fathers the remarks
are an unequivocal, bold neon colored calls for assassination. When the
"left" explicitly hope for the death of Sarah Palin and/or
her children, pray for Dick Cheney's heart to give out, and make big budget
Hollywood movies glorifying the murder of GWB, the speech is apparently
translucent in the lack of notice it receives.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">I hope that this gives you "a
clear and distinct idea" on where this cartoon character stands on the
matter at hand. Now, if you'd be so kind, could you go into a little more
detail with regard to my education? There is very little that I find more
fascinating then to hear the playground mope expound at length on the topic
of what he imagines my background to be.</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div></div>
<div style="font: 10pt Tahoma;">
<div><font color="#000000" face="Calibri" size="3"></font><br></div>
<div style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(245, 245, 245);">
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="mailto:deco@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com" target="_blank">Art Deco</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 01, 2011 2:35 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <a title="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com
CTRL + Click to follow link" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision 2020</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> [SPAM]Re: [Vision2020] that Jared guy and mental
health</div></div></div>
<div><font color="#000000" face="Calibri"></font><br></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">A lesson to Reggie, et al:</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">This dispute is on Vision 2020 is driven by
at least two things:</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">1. The lack of anywhere
near agreement on the definitions of "right" v. "left" and "hate
speech".</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">2. The apparent inability
and unwillingness of Falen/Crabtree to support their positions with
meaningful arguments. With Roger, it is the apparent inability to
understand what an argument is; with Crabtree, it is the long demonstrated
unwillingness <b>to engage in meaningful dialogue</b> on any
subject where his basic beliefs may be threatened by facts and/or
alternative values.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Reggie: When you put the list at issue
together, you offered evidence. One would expect those holding an
opposing views would offer a different list of at least the same
magnitude. Both Crabtree and Falen are unwilling to do so.
Forget meaningful dialogue.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">At some point, maybe one side or the other
would offer more clarifying definitions so that the dispute could be better
conducted by referring meaningful evidence. Don't look to Falen or
Crabtree for that either. It is too threatening.</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I repeat the following without much hope that
either Falen or Crabtree will alter their self-satisfying, but futile,
churlish behavior:</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">
<div><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff">'It may be wise to remember in a
discussion of values</font> [or any other subject] <font color="#0000ff">the
following paraphrase of a quotation from English Philosopher John
Locke:</font></font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2">"When comparing two ideas, it is necessary
to have a clear and distinct idea of each."'</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">Or its modern statement:</font></div>
<div><font size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2">"When comparing two statements or theories, the clearer,
less vague and ambiguous statement(s) of and definitions used in each, the
better the chance of meaningfully determining the truth, or in the case of
values, the correct application, or least discovering the roots of agreement
or disagreement."</font></div></font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Over many months of reading Crabtree in
action on V2020 I have thought that he might be the object of a
possible <i>Far Side</i> cartoon whose caption would be "When
self-education goes horribly wrong."</font></div>
<div><font face="Verdana" size="2"></font> </div><font face="Verdana" size="2">
<div><br>Wayne A. Fox<br>1009 Karen Lane<br>PO Box 9421<br>Moscow, ID
83843</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a href="mailto:waf@moscow.com" target="_blank">waf@moscow.com</a><br>208
882-7975<br></div></font></blockquote></blockquote></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div style="font: 10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial; background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(228, 228, 228);"><b>From:</b>
<a title="lfalen@turbonet.com" href="mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com" target="_blank">lfalen</a>
</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a title="reggieholmquist@u.boisestate.edu" href="mailto:reggieholmquist@u.boisestate.edu" target="_blank">Reggie Holmquist</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision 2020</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 01, 2011
10:52 AM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] that Jared
guy and mental health</div>
<div><br></div>I hope that you had fun putting together this list, some of
which it would really be a stretch to call hate speech or necessarily from
the the right. It would almost seem that anything you disagree with is
hate speech or right wing. I don't much care if it is exactly equal from
both sides. suffice it to say that there is plenty on both. <b><font color="#ff0000">I am not going to go tit for tat with
you.<br></font></b>Roger<br></blockquote>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>=======================================================<br> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a>
<br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================
<br>=======================================================<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net" target="_blank">http://www.fsr.net</a><br>
mailto:<a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br>