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<TITLE>RE: [Vision2020] Freedom of expression</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Hi Paul,<BR>
<BR>
I was not at all suggesting that the Chamber of Commerce shut down the NSA website. That of course would be un-constitutional. But I was suggesting is that the Chamber should be mindful of the ads of any business or institution that might put the city in a bad light. All that they would have would be the power of persuasion not coercion.<BR>
<BR>
However one might interpret the NSA Rumble in the Alley, I believe that it does indeed show that they don't mind dissing people they don't agree with. And during the slavery debate that included the UI and its faculty.<BR>
<BR>
Think of how much more business West of Paris would get if it weren't associated with Christ Church and its alienating tactics.<BR>
<BR>
Nick<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of Paul Rumelhart<BR>
Sent: Sun 12/12/2010 3:57 PM<BR>
To: Joe Campbell<BR>
Cc: Vision2020<BR>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Freedom of expression<BR>
<BR>
I hate the concept of "hate speech" in law, and thus would like the<BR>
non-law definition to be more strictly held.<BR>
<BR>
I do not see that home page as "hate speech" in either definition. It's<BR>
essentially a more creative and descriptive way of saying "we teach our<BR>
students to fight the idea of secularism". Nowhere did I see anything<BR>
advocating actual violence. It was a metaphor. Or hyperbole. Or<BR>
something. English class was a long time ago. What it's not is hate<BR>
speech. Not in my opinion, anyway.<BR>
<BR>
I don't classify myself as a secularist, but they probably would. I<BR>
don't feel threatened in any manner. If I met a bunch of NSA students<BR>
in a dark alley and mentioned I was a proponent of secularism, the worst<BR>
I would fear is a long debate when I'm just trying to get home from work.<BR>
<BR>
To put it bluntly, you all are making a mountain out of a mole hill<BR>
because you don't like Christ Church. Let it go. If they start<BR>
threatening people on their website, I'll be on your side in trying to<BR>
convince them to stop. As it is, I'm only tempted to send them a note<BR>
telling them that I thought the gift card thing was creative.<BR>
<BR>
Paul<BR>
<BR>
Joe Campbell wrote:<BR>
> Just to be clear, I am not really offended by NSA's website. I find it<BR>
> amusing. I'm also as straight, white, Christian, and male as you are,<BR>
> so it isn't too surprising that I'm not offended, that I don't feel<BR>
> threatened by people I know to be cowards and political opportunists.<BR>
> My real claim is that the NSA website is OFFENSIVE, that it is hate<BR>
> speech.<BR>
><BR>
> Here's a good enough definition that I found on the web: "Hate speech<BR>
> is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a<BR>
> group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual<BR>
> orientation. In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct,<BR>
> writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence<BR>
> or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group,<BR>
> or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or<BR>
> group."<BR>
><BR>
> I'm using it in the non-legal sense, so I'm not asking that the law<BR>
> step into the matter. Are you suggesting that the website is NOT hate<BR>
> speech, that it is not even worthy of criticism?<BR>
><BR>
> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
>> And I'm not just talking about Freedom of Speech as codified in the Bill<BR>
>> of Rights. That's only there to keep our government from trampling on<BR>
>> freedom of expression, which is a right we all have regardless of the<BR>
>> Bill of Rights.<BR>
>><BR>
>> If this discussion had nothing to do with freedom of expression, then<BR>
>> the topics would change from "violent rhetoric" and "this offends me" to<BR>
>> "secularism doesn't have to be the enemy of Christian thought" and<BR>
>> "exactly what is secularism and why does it frighten them so".<BR>
>><BR>
>> You see what I'm sayin'?<BR>
>><BR>
>> Paul<BR>
>><BR>
>> Tom Hansen wrote:<BR>
>> <BR>
>>> Paul Rumelhart stated:<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> "I think the freedom of an individual or group of individuals to express<BR>
>>> themselves is sacrosanct. The freedom to express your opinion should be<BR>
>>> held dearly by everyone, if they want to live in a free society."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Nobody is arguing against NSA's right to speak or their right to post<BR>
>>> comments on their website.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Nick Gier and Joe Campbell are merely argiung that the statements made by<BR>
>>> NSA are inappropriate, analagous to those complaints made here on the Viz<BR>
>>> (and a local blahg) against those of us who express our displeasure with a<BR>
>>> certain local un-pastor.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> New Saint Andrews College and its "management" are free to post whatever<BR>
>>> commentary they like. Just as each of us has the right to evaluate the<BR>
>>> appropriateness of those comments.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Yasee what I'm sayin'?<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Now, I may be going out on a limb here by suggesting that there are some<BR>
>>> Viz subscribers that feel less than thrilled by comments I have made, and<BR>
>>> they have every right to express their displeasure. Many of them have.<BR>
>>> And in the future many more will.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> And yet life goes on.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Seeya round town, Moscow.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Tom Hansen<BR>
>>> Moscow, Idaho<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<BR>
>>> and the Realist adjusts his sails."<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> - Unknown<BR>
>>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>> <BR>
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>><BR>
>> <BR>
><BR>
> <BR>
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