<div class="gmail_quote">Joe:<div><br></div><div>A quick tip of the metaphorical hat. Great analysis. I would've enjoyed discussing it with you while we were debating. </div><div><br></div><div>I agree with everything you said RE the month of November.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I will enjoy your future postings if they are of this caliber.</div><div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I did a brief amount of research, checking out the frequency that<br>
folks on Vision 2020 talk about Christ Church or NSA and it is clear<br>
that Darrell Keim has over exaggerated that frequency, at least when<br>
it comes to RECENT discussion on Vision 2020. It might be the case<br>
that the topic was discussed more often a while ago but in terms of<br>
the NOVEMBER topics, the discussion is limited at best. The funny<br>
thing is, next to me the person who discussed CC or NSA the most on<br>
this list in November was Darrell! In short, this is not a topic<br>
discussed much any more by anyone other than myself. Even in my case,<br>
I mentioned CC and NSA in the last month less than 30% of the time,<br>
and the vast majority of those cases were in the discussions I had<br>
with Darrell. If Darrell and I had not debated about the issue, there<br>
would have been fewer than 10 passing references to CC or NSA during<br>
the month of November. I'm not sure of the total number of posts but<br>
it is in the hundreds.<br>
<br>
Again, this is just a cross section but it illustrates that not only<br>
were Darrell's continual assertions about Vision 2020s obsession with<br>
CC and NSA (see below) unsupported, something he at no time tried to<br>
fix by doing some research of his own, they are in fact, at least with<br>
respect to recent postings, flat-out incorrect. I challenge Darrell to<br>
come up with some RECENT data to support his claims (no use rehearsing<br>
the past, as Darrell has said) or to admit that in fact his claims<br>
were incorrect and there was NO reason for him to raise a fuse in the<br>
first place.<br>
<br>
First I'll list the data followed by some analysis followed by the<br>
assertions that Darrell has made which are refuted by the data. I am<br>
not a social scientist, so if someone else has recent findings that go<br>
against my claims, please bring them forth. Prejudicial claims by<br>
conservatives to the contrary don't count as DATA, by the way. Again,<br>
I choose the most recent month (took me about 4 hours this morning to<br>
compile the data by the way) but if someone else wants to investigate<br>
another RECENT month, please do so.<br>
<br>
Again, I just checked November in part because this was a recent month<br>
where the issue of CC/NSA explicitly came up. I lost count in my case,<br>
so the number of 15 is an estimate. But it is clear by looking at my<br>
postings this month that far fewer than half of the time did I talk<br>
about CC/NSA. And I am willing to admit my own obsession with CC/NSA.<br>
That is pretty well known! In some of the cases the discussion was<br>
really about whether I should talk about CC/NSA and in most cases I<br>
discuss topics that are not directly related to CC/NSA. In the other<br>
case, the numbers refer to even passing references, not the explicit<br>
mention of "Christ Church" or "Douglas Wilson" or "New Saint Andrews."<br>
Thus, when a name or intended reference was mentioned, even if in<br>
passing in a post about a completely different topic, I counted it.<br>
<br>
Joe Campbell 15/52<br>
Art Deco 5/43<br>
Keely Mix 5/33<br>
Tom Hansen 4/105<br>
Nick Gier 2/8<br>
Moscow Cares 0/15<br>
Saundra Lund 0/14<br>
Andreas Schou 0/12<br>
Debi Smith 0/9<br>
Carl Westberg 0/8<br>
Bill London 0/5<br>
Ralph Nielsen 0/4<br>
Rosemary Huskey 0/2<br>
<br>
This is a list of some of the folks that we might expect to be talking<br>
about CC/NSA. Note that in Keely's case, the 5 instances include 2<br>
where there was merely a passing reference. In each of Tom's 4<br>
instances there is NO explicit reference to either CC or NSA. Here are<br>
some conservatives/moderates worth noting:<br>
<br>
Darrell Keim 8/15<br>
Gary Crabtree 0/26<br>
Roger Falen 0/26<br>
Dan Carscallen 0/5<br>
Jeff Harkins 0/3<br>
<br>
Again, notice that Darrell comes in number 2, next to me, in terms of<br>
posts discussing Christ Church and/or NSA for the month of November!<br>
It can't be the frequency of our discussion that disturbs him<br>
otherwise he'd have been better off NOT offering any criticisms to<br>
begin with.<br>
<br>
<br>
There were 3 posts that got the lion's share of CC/NSA attention.<br>
<br>
Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow’s Muscular Christianity<br>
11 posts, though 2 were off topic. Joe (3); Darrell (2); Nick; Keely;<br>
Wayne (Art Deco); Tom. All of these are noted above.<br>
<br>
Curiosity Question<br>
21 posts, some of which (Roger's insult, my response, Tom's apology)<br>
were off topic. Joe (9); Darrell (8); Tom (2); Roger; Keely. All of<br>
these are noted above.<br>
<br>
Health Education: A Conspiracy?<br>
22 posts; only 6 reference CC or NSA; 3 of these were noted above.<br>
<br>
That gives us 42 posts for the month of December, the vast majority of<br>
which were made AFTER Darrell made his initial accusation (Nov 28) and<br>
8 of which were made by Darrell himself.<br>
<br>
<br>
Here are some of Darrell's recent assertions about Vision 2020 and its<br>
obsession with CC/NSA, which seem to have been refuted:<br>
“The churches and schools which you hint at below have been well<br>
analyzed on this list.” (Nov 28 12:25:29)<br>
<br>
“… this topic has been well discussed on this list …” (Nov 28 14:32:45)<br>
<br>
“Unfortunately, this listserv seems like a one note instrument when<br>
almost everything is linked to that same topic.” (Nov 28 16:42:16)<br>
<br>
“It just doesn’t seem like v2020 benefits from having the topic come<br>
up so often.” (Nov 28 18:10:08)<br>
<br>
“And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA criticism on<br>
V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on v2020. Too<br>
recap: I initially complained about how often things, such as the<br>
church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC. When you pressed in a<br>
later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something<br>
changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they<br>
stand. Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn’t seem to be of<br>
benefit.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)<br>
<br>
“I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that matter, on<br>
V2020. I just wish the topic didn’t have to come up with such<br>
frequency.” (Dec 1 00:17:15)<br>
<br>
“Do they [Christ Church and NSA] constantly post on Vision 2020 about<br>
the same thing over and over and over and over and over... ad<br>
infinitum? No, in fact they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks<br>
that found them offensive (which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2<br>
of our Mission Statement).” (Dec 1 00:17:15)<br>
<br>
“If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ Church, and<br>
no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might.” (Dec 1<br>
00:17:15)<br>
<br>
“None of those topics, or any other, get near the coverage on V2020<br>
that Christ Church does. Too make an analogy: V2020 is like a<br>
household water spigot for most topics. It is a fire hose for Christ<br>
Church topics. I’d simply like to see the fire hose turned down.”<br>
(Dec 1 18:11:24)<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div>-- <br>3 things to think about:<div><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">1. </span><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you will look forward to the trip.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">2. </span><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">3. </span><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px">Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-family:verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br>
</span></div><br>
</div>
</div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div>--------------------------------------------------------------------</div>3 things to think about:<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">1. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you will look forward to the trip.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">2. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">3. </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.</span></div>
<br>