These two have just as much right to discourse on this channel as anyone else. If you don't like it, maybe don't read the messages, but please do not disparage them for their enthusiasm in discussing important issues of the day. Rather, that sort of thing should be encouraged. Remarks like yours make me wonder: Is it any wonder we have such an apathetic society?<br>
<br>With Much Respect,<br>Reggie<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Sam Scripter <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:MoscowSam@charter.net">MoscowSam@charter.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"><div class="im">
<br>
<br>
Matt Decker wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
Darrell and
Joe,<br>
<br>
You two have WAY too much time on your hands............<br>
<br>
Matt D<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div><big><u><b>AMEN! [Re Matt, above]</b></u><br>
<br>
Why don't you two take it off-line? Enough is enough. <br><font color="#888888">
<br>
Sam Scripter</font></big><div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <br>
<hr>
From: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 21:19:59 -0800<br>
To: <a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular
Christianity<br>
<br>
<div>Who, what, when? Back the claims up with specific examples.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div><br>
On Dec 1, 2010, at 6:08 PM, Darrell Keim <<a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div><span style="border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 13px;">
<pre style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: pre-wrap;"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">We’ll have to agree to disagree on this, Sunil. Run off is a strong term, but it is the closest I can come to what seemed to be happening at the time. While some, such as D. Wilson almost seemed to enjoy stirring up V2020 and deserved to be questioned, others seemed to be gone after simply because they were CC members. Perhaps this didn’t specifically happen on the listserv—enough happened on both the listserv and in town that I can’t recall what happened where—CC members were uncomfortable enough that they are no longer a part of the community conversation that v2020 was originally designed to aid. While I don't necessarily agree with them, I think they have a right to be a part of the conversation.</span></font></pre>
<pre style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: pre-wrap;"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I remember when this issue was new and hot: vandalism, name calling, pickets, lists of businesses not to patronize. I felt both sides went too far.</span></font></pre>
<pre style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: pre-wrap;"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre>
<pre style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; white-space: pre-wrap;"><font face="Courier New" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></pre>
</span><br>
<div>On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:53 AM, Sunil
Ramalingam <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:sunilramalingam@hotmail.com" target="_blank">sunilramalingam@hotmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Darrell,<br>
<br>
I don't think anyone was run off V2020. People chose to leave, for
whatever reason. One didn't want to answer questions about things he
had said here and in the papers. But they weren't run off.<br>
<br>
Sunil<br>
<hr>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2010 00:17:15 -0800<br>
From: <a href="mailto:keim153@gmail.com" target="_blank">keim153@gmail.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<div><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Crusaders vs. Infidels: Moscow's Muscular
Christianity<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Joe:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was going to leave you alone, as you requested. But since
you asked to restart our correspondence...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hey V2020 posters:</div>
Lots of good stuff below if you like watching Joe and I banter back and
forth.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Joe Campbell <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com" target="_blank">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div>In all honesty I'm having some trouble understanding your
point, Darrell. I fear you won't clarify it further but I'll ask some
questions in the hope that you really do have a point to make.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I'll try. I thought I was fairly clear. I'm not surprised
you are having trouble, we don't seem to communicate well with one
another. </div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You call the NSA post a "new advertising campaign" but
complain about the recent NSA criticism on Vision 2020 because it is
"rehashing the old" so it "doesn't seem to be of benefit." But how can
it be rehashing the "old" if it is criticism of the "new" ad campaign?
The ad campaign was just posted, so criticism of it is "new," right?
(I've actually made this point already.)</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Yeah, it's a new campaign. But has the product they are
attempting to sell changed in any way? No. SSDD. That's Same Stuff,
Different Day. They are still ultra-conservative christians with some
views that many consider odd and/or offensive. It is simply a new
campaign selling the same ultra conservative dogma as they have always
sold. I doubt if it will change anyones position or deepen their
understanding of them.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And, to clarify my position I did not complain about NSA
criticism on V2020. I complained about the amount of NSA criticism on
v2020. Too recap: I initially complained about how often things, such
as the church list Tom posted, get linked back to CC. When you pressed
in a later note I elaborated that unless we had new info or something
changed, it seems like most of the key players already know where they
stand. Thus, my belief that further discussion doesn't seem to be of
benefit. That was the point where you made at least 5 erroneous
assertions about me. Assertions which were downright silly,
considering how little you know about me. Assertions, which I'll
remind you, you never deigned to address. Even after I was kind enough
to enumerate them for you, and request clarification. I digress. Sorry
about that.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have no problem with NSA criticism, or praise for that
matter, on V2020. I just wish the topic didn't have to come up with
such frequency. Moscow has other things of interest to discuss. What
about the schools? U of I? Downtown? URA? City Council? All of
these together don't get half the bandwidth CC does. Here is our
Mission Statement. Perhaps it should be posted periodically, so that
people might read it. It is one of the reasons I initially signed on
to V2020.</div>
<div><span style="font-family: Verdana,Arial,sans-serif; color: rgb(52, 74, 116); font-size: 16px;">
<table align="center" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt;" valign="top">
<table border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 10pt;" valign="top" width="400">
<h3 style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; color: rgb(52, 74, 116); font-size: 10pt;">Vision
2020 Mission Statement Adopted March 1995</h3>
<ol>
<li>To ensure that all parts of our community have
an opportunity to take part in visualizing and planning for the
community's future. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To strengthen citizens' sense of community by
promoting awareness, ownership and investment in Moscow's future. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To foster cooperation among (and public
involvement with) the agencies and organizations that plan for and make
decisions about the future of Moscow and Latah County. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To raise awareness on the part of citizens and
public officials that: <br>
<br>
<ol>
<li>uncontrolled and unplanned growth may have
negative effects. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>short-term decisions have long-term
consequences.</li>
</ol>
<br>
</li>
<li>To inform ourselves about growth and
development issues. <br>
<br>
</li>
<li>To have fun thinking critically and creatively.</li>
</ol>
<div><br>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</span></div>
<div> <span style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Does this
much focus on one topic help us to achieve our mission? I submit that
it does not.</span></div>
<div><span style="font-family: Verdana,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br>
</span></div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div>Is your point that NSA and Christ Church can insult
secularists and Muslims and progressives and be free of public
criticism, and use threatening rhetoric, because they've done it
before? Is the use of threatening rhetoric in an NSA ad campaign "old
news"?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>No. And if you honestly think the campaign is a legitimate
physical threat--i.e. they are going to go out and physically assault
people, well I think that is highly unlikely. You must also think that
drinking Bud Light will get the Swedish Bikini Team after you, and that
Exxon gas will put a real tiger in your tank. I kid. I think they are
using outrageous advertising hyperbole to draw their target
market--ultra conservative christians. Not a turn-on for me, but I'll
bet it works well for the people they want.</div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yet isn't the NSA complaint about secularists "old news"
for this very reason, just the same old stuff they've been saying? Did
you contact Roy Atwood and complain to him about reporting "old news"
in his "new" ad campaign? Or is there something special that the NSA
and Christ Church criticisms have going for them that exempts them from
the "only new criticisms" demand?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Do they constantly post on Vision 2020 about the same thing
over and over and over and over and over... ad infinitum? No, in fact
they were pretty much run-off v2020 by folks that found them offensive
(which would seem to violate points 1 AND 2 of our Mission Statement).
And, while I have spoken with Roy Atwood and other key players at both
CC and Logos on other topics, why would I speak to any of them about
something they post on their webpages? It is their space, they can
write what they wish; whether you or I like it or not.</div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Maybe the V is special since it is a public venue. Then in
that case, you'll be sure to make the same complaint when Crabtree or
Roger or whomever accuses liberals and progressives of being
socialists, or in favor of gun control, or any number of charges that
they keep making over and over again. Same "old news" and there is no
place on the V for "old news" since it "doesn't seem to be of benefit,"
right? </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>If those issues came up with the same frequency as Christ
Church, and no real change bringing in new info to discuss, I might. </div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or did I still miss the "nuance" yet again?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Yeah, you probably did. But that's okay with me. I'm happy
to answer questions for you. Perhaps you'll answer some of the
questions I've already asked you sometime..</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style="padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
<br>
============</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<div><span>=======================================================</span><br>
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</span><br>
<span> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com" target="_blank">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a></span><br>
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<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
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=======================================================<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. <br>
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