<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Well, to jump in on the side of the "trouble makers", my background is Jesuit Catholic, and I was taught that it is: "Thou shalt not murder", which as Bob D. pointed out is far far different than<div>thou shalt not kill. </div><div><br></div><div>A good place to start is this passage from the Sacred Book of Wikipedia:</div><div><br></div><div>"<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; ">Multiple translations exist of the fifth/sixth commandment; the Hebrew words לא תרצח are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder," though recent research suggests that neither one is accurate, as noted immediately below. Older Protestant translations of the Bible, those based on the </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; "><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate" title="Vulgate" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">Vulgate</a></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; "> and Roman Catholic translations usually render it as "Thou shalt not </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; "><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill" title="Kill" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">kill</a></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; ">," whereas Jewish and newer Protestant versions tend to use "You shall not </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; "><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder" title="Murder" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; ">murder</a></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-weight: bold; line-height: 25px; ">." There is controversy as to which translation is more faithful, and both forms are quoted in support of many opposing ethical standpoints.</span></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 17px; font-weight: bold; line-height: 19px; "><div style="margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5em; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">The </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate" title="Vulgate" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Vulgate</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (Latin) translation has </span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Non occides</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">, i.e. "Thou shalt not kill." English translations using "kill" include the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version" title="King James Version" class="mw-redirect" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">King James (Authorised)</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1611) [although note </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew" title="Gospel of Matthew" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Matthew</span></font></a><a href="http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=Matthew%20&verse=19:18&src=KJV" class="external text" rel="nofollow" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 102, 187); background-image: url(http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/vector/images/external-link-ltr-icon.png?2); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 13px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; background-position: 100% 50%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">19:18</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> "do not murder," following the Vulgate </span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">non homicidium facies</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">], the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Standard_Version" title="American Standard Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">American Standard</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1901) and </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Standard_Version" title="Revised Standard Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Revised Standard</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American Protestant, 1952) Versions. Almost all Roman Catholic translations, including the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay-Rheims_Bible" title="Douay-Rheims Bible" class="mw-redirect" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Douay-Rheims Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1609/1752), the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Bible" title="New American Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New American Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1970), the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem_Bible" title="New Jerusalem Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New Jerusalem Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1985) and the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Community_Bible" title="Christian Community Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Christian Community Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">(1986), have "kill." </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible" title="Luther Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Martin Luther</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (German, 1534) also uses </span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">töten</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (kill).</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5em; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Protestant translations using "murder" include the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_International_Version" title="New International Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New International Version</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American, 1978), </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible" title="New American Standard Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New American Standard Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American, 1971), </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_English_Bible" title="New English Bible" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New English Bible</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (British Protestant, 1970), and the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_King_James_Version" title="New King James Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New King James</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American, 1982), </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Revised_Standard_Version" title="New Revised Standard Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">New Revised Standard</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American, 1989) and </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Standard_Version" title="English Standard Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">English Standard</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (American Protestant, 2001) Versions. Jewish translations almost all use "murder," including the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Publication_Society_of_America_Version" title="Jewish Publication Society of America Version" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Jewish Publication Society of America Version</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1917), the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaica_Press" title="Judaica Press" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Judaica Press tanach</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1963) and the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Living_Torah" title="The Living Torah" class="mw-redirect" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Living Torah</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> (1981). A Jewish exception to this pattern is the </span></font><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artscroll" title="Artscroll" class="mw-redirect" style="text-decoration: none; color: rgb(6, 69, 173); background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Artscroll</span></font></a><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> or </span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">Stone Edition</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> tanach (1996).</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0.4em; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 1.5em; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">The Old Testament's examples of killings sanctioned by God are often cited in defense of the view that "murder" is a more accurate translation. Additionally, Hebrew has other words for "kill," including הרג (</span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">harag</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">) and המית (</span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">heimit</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">), while רצח (</span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">ratzach</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">), which is found in the Ten Commandments לא תרצח (</span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">lo tirtzach</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">), was more specific. Joel M. Hoffman concludes that "kill" is too broad but "murder" is too narrow to reflect </span></font><i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">tirtsah</span></font></i><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;">.</span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 14px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"> "</span></font></span></div><h3 style="color: black; background-image: none; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: initial; font-weight: bold; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.3em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0.5em; padding-bottom: 0.17em; border-bottom-width: initial; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; width: auto; font-size: 17px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; font-weight: normal;"><br></span></font><div><br></div><span class="mw-headline" id="You_shall_not_steal"></span></h3></span><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 24, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I was going to ask the same thing as Bob, aka the "troublemaker."<br>Similar questions about "Thou shalt not lie." Is "lie" the right<br>translation or does it cover deception, too? Also, is it the case that<br>the first 4 are often combined into 2? And do different denominations<br>have different lists? And is it OK to covet my neighbor's car? I live<br>next to Tom Lamar and he just has a Subaru. But once I lived next to a<br>guy with a Mustang! Now I'm sounding like a troublemaker!<br><br>All kidding aside, it isn't the "fundamentalists" that follow the ten<br>commandments that bother me so much. It's the one's who don't follow<br>them yet try to make it seem as if "Thou shalt not be gay," etc. are<br>on the list when it isn't. Like the guy who says his name is "Glenn<br>Schwaller" when it isn't and likes to lecture folks on their morals.<br>Holy crap!<br><br>On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Robert Dickow <<a href="mailto:dickow@turbonet.com">dickow@turbonet.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">It is interesting to me that the wording of my equivalent of the "g"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">commandment that I learned was 'Thou shall not kill', not 'Thou shall not<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">murder.'. The choice of translation here to 'murder' could make for an<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">allowance that makes it perfectly ok to kill people--in war let's say. Maybe<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">'murder' is a more accurate translation in fact, since it is a little more<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">specific. After all, it has been quite acceptable to kill in self-defense,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and that can be carried to national scope too. Any scholarly comments out<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">there on the word choice?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Bob Dickow, troublemaker<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-----Original Message-----<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [<a href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</a>]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Behalf Of Ralph Nielsen<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2010 10:28 AM<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: vision 2020<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: [Vision2020] Ten Commandments?<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> THE TEN COMMANDMENTS<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Here are the Ten Commandments issued by Yahweh (the LORD) God on<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Mount Sinai. Test your knowledge by numbering them from 1 to 10 in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the spaces provided.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><snip>...<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">__ g. You shall not murder<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">...<snip><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> List services made available by First Step Internet,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>