<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Dave, <div><br></div><div>I agree, to follow an unlawful order is an unlawful act. That is a fact we can agree on.</div><div><br></div><div>No one has said, nor do we expect, soldiers to follow orders blindly, nor do we expect them to question lawful orders.</div><div><br></div><div>Now, you made the statement, "Or you say if your commander orders you to go rape that twelve your old in front of her father so that he will confess, you have to follow the order? (as has happened several times recently)"</div><div>That statement, given the context of this thread being the deployment of US troops, is that a US commander has "<font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><b>as happened several times recently</b></span></font>", ordered American troops, or foreign troops under US command to</div><div>"<font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px;"><b>rape that twelve year old in front of her father so that he will confess</b></span></font>". Ok, you said it, now prove it.</div><div><br></div><div>After 36 years in the Army as an enlisted soldier and a commissioned officer, have I never heard of such nonsense. IF I had heard such nonsense, I can assure you that my duty would be not just to stop such an action from taking place, but also bring those who would have given such an order to a higher authority to take the necessary legal action. So would anyone else that has served.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 28, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Dave wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>So let's see, you say solders are supposed to follow orders blindly? <br>This was the defense argument of Hitler's top brass, it didn't fly in <br>Nuremberg, nor should it have.<br><br>To follow an unlawful order is an unlawful act, period.<br><br>Or you say if your commander orders you to go rape that twelve your old <br>in front of her father so that he will confess, you have to follow the <br>order? (as has happened several times recently)<br><br>Dave<br><br><br>Andreas Schou wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">All --<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I apparently misinterpreted Garrett's response to Tom, when meaning to<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">reply directly to Dave. I recommend not posting to V2020 at 1:00 in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the morning.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-- ACS<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Andreas Schou <<a href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Garrett --<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Except for a few exceptions -- defined by our Congress as being<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">permissible -- the military absolutely does have to follow orders.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Obeying the orders of democratic institutions, however misguided,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">doesn't lead to tyranny. Disobeying them leads to a military coup --<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and can you point to a single example of a military coup leading to a<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">stable democracy?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-- ACS<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Garrett Clevenger<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><<a href="mailto:garrettmc@verizon.net">garrettmc@verizon.net</a>> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Andreas writes:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">"We don't want them deciding that they know better than us whose lives they should be taking."<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Is this really what she meant?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">If so, then that's exactly why those of us who aren't obligated to obey orders should be questioning why our troops are being used.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To go down the road that Andreas suggest is to head towards tyranny.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">If a coup is what it takes to end imperialism, then I guess our founding documents had it right by suggesting that may be necessary from time to time.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It must be the teabagger in me for I resent our tax dollars and our troops being used at the leaders whim, particularly when the circumstance for using those troops is highly questionable.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I've resented the invasion of Iraq from the beginning, so I'll keep on questioning that.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Please excuse my ignorance, but why are our Idaho National Guardspeople being sent to Iraq? Aren't they supposed to guard Idaho?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I respect guardspeople enough to make sure their commitment isn't being abused.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Garrett<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Apr 27, 2010 10:10:58 PM, <a href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">ophite@gmail.com</a> wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">===========================================<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">On the other hand, it seems ignorant to just blindly obey them (and at the same<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">time allow our fellow Idahoans to risk their lives for misguided<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">policy), so have at it.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It's not ignorant. Down that road lies a coup. We entrust our troops<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">with the power to take human lives on our behalf. We don't want them<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">deciding that they know better than us whose lives they should be<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">taking.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-- ACS<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>-- <br>Windows, OSX, or Linux is the same choice as:<br>McDonald's, Burger King, or a (real) Co-Op.<br><br>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>