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I'm really disappointed in the tone of much of the discussion here. While it is true that I have much more liberal views on immigration, and particularly illegal immigration, than most of you, the point of my initial post is that the Arizona bill signed into law by Gov. Brewer is a civil-rights, human dignity horror. <br><br>I think that's the thing we all ought to agree on. Regardless of what people would propose to solve the issues presented by illegal immigration, I'd like to believe that every one of us would recognize bad law when we see it, and would condemn it as such immediately. After all, if there were a bill that required that all gay people be rounded up and deported -- that is, all people presumed to be gay by whatever criteria the cops are told to consider "probable cause" -- I think it would be wrong to respond by discussing, say, domestic partnerships or other issues involving the GLBT community. We would, I hope, vehemently condemn a despicable law, regardless of our views on other issues involving the targets of it. Let's discuss the issue of undocumented border crossers, but let's remember that the topic immediately at hand is a markedly un-American (and un-Christian) bill that ought to provoke our fiercest response. This isn't one of many reasonable solutions to immigration problems. Let's not discuss it as though it were.<br><br>Before we discuss the "problem" of illegal immigration, shouldn't we take a huge step back and look clearly at what this law does? Does it concern any of you that under the guise of addressing a legitimate issue, the State has determined that physical, linguistic, cultural and other ethnically-based criteria can be used to make people produce certain documents, regardless of whether or not the subject has done anything to attract the attention of law enforcement? Can you reasonably suggest that there is somehow a non-racial/ethnic aspect to this law? Is this really what you want law enforcement to occupy itself with? <br><br>And does it bother you at all that if you're an Anglo person in the U.S., you're not going to be asked to produce your I.D. and birth certificate or other residency/naturalization/citizenship papers just because a cop tells you to, using immigration as the reason for his/her demand? Are you at all concerned that my sister-in-law's family, or my dear friend Hilda, could be forced to produce documentation that shows their legal residency, just because their skin color, last names, or accents appear "Mexican" -- even though they're American citizens? This is a hateful and unconstitutional law that every single American -- and particularly our libertarian freedom advocates -- ought to greet with horror, and if it continues unchallenged, we won't be able to blame "illegals" for sullying the values and laws of the land. We'll have Arizona's and other state legislatures to thank for that instead.<br><br>And to promote reasonable measures to address the issue, I'd suggest the following -- but only after making it clear that unreasonable, unjust, and un-Constitutional approaches don't merit discussion as if they were somehow something good people can disagree on. <br><br>1. Grant immediate amnesty to any immigrant employed here for more than three consecutive years, and include their working or non-working spouses and their children, foreign-born or American-born. This ought to be a priority for the "family values" set.<br><br>2. Tax them as we do all other workers, after they pay a fine -- say, $1,000 per family for every year in the country without papers. The fiscal conservatives ought to love this.<br><br>3. Make it more easy for immigrants to enter the country legally. It's currently damned near impossible, even for highly skilled workers, and agricultural industries need a steady number of low-skilled people to harvest crops, regardless of how they get here. (Notice that even the most conservative farmers, dairy owners, and other ag-industry owners aren't on the anti-immigrant bandwagon?) This should please those conservatives and all others like them who eat, as well as those who think that people risk their lives to cross over because, dang, it's kind of a hassle to go through legal channels.<br><br>4. Once those immigrants are granted amnesty -- permanent resident-alien status, with a tax break, perhaps, upon earning citizenship -- the borders should be patrolled humanely, constitutionally, and legally, and stiff penalties for crossing illegally should then be enacted. This should satisfy the law-and-order crowd, although I'd remind them and anyone else who clamors for the prosecution of employers who hire undocumented workers that the Federal I-9 employment form MUST, by law, be accepted by an employer IF it looks genuine. I've been through U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service training on I-9s twice, and I know I could be fooled. Employers don't have the luxury, thank God, of examining an I-9 that looks fine and then declining to hire the presenter anyway because statistics say it's PROBABLY not genuine anyway. That's illegal, too. If an I-9 looks real, it has to be accepted. Period. <br><br>Finally, I'd ask each one of you who think we need to get tough on "illegals" how hungry your kids would have to get, or how threatened your wife would have to be, before you'd do something like cross a border without papers to feed or protect them. Then I'd ask you to consider that you probably won't ever have to face that situation, and perhaps extend some understanding to those who have.<br><br><font style="" color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size: 12pt;" size="3"><font style="" face="Verdana">Keely<br>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<br></font></font></font><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From: bear@moscow.com<br>To: godshatter@yahoo.com<br>Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:10:15 -0700<br>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law<br><br><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Paul,</span></font><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">I agree that this is an issue that there are no simple answers to. When you said "what we are now doing which is<span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"> <span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">holding illegal immigration to be a status that should be demonized", shouldn't it be?</span></span></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">I am NOT talking about those in this country legally, but those in the country illegally. Those folks that have jumped through the hoops have paid their dues so to speak and should</span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">be welcomed and should be held up as great examples. Those however that have entered illegally, have in fact committed a federal crime and should be prosecuted, deported and barred</span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">from re-entry.</span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Now, one of the areas that does impact us locally is with the certification that has to be submitted by employers to the Department of Labor to bring in foreign workers. </span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">The employer has to certify:</span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial,Verdana,sans-serif; line-height: 14px;"><ul style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 2em; padding: 0px; border-width: 0px; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit; list-style-type: none; list-style-position: outside;"><li style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px; border-width: 0px; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit;"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage</span></font></li><li style="margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding: 0px; border-width: 0px; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit;"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Hiring a foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers</span></font></li></ul><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Just think about this when it involves the University and bringing in employees from outside the US. The University is saying, "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage". Well, what is that based on? Notice there is NO mention of "best qualified", just "qualified". For instance, a position becomes available at the University. Several people including US citizens, put in for the position and a foreign national is given there job. Now, when the University certifies to the federal government that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage" is it true? And is it even looked into or is the certification taken on face value and no subsequent investigation as to the truth or falsehood of the statement by the employer is made? And there is a pro-forma process where the notification is "posted" for two weeks outside an obscure office door where the other applicants are unlikely to ever see it and be able to contest the hiring decision. And a better question would be who makes the determination at the employer level that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage?" Some clerk? The University President? Who is held responsible IF a determination is made that the statement is false? What is the consequence? Currently, it doesn't appear to be any at all, so why would the "system" ever change? </span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" size="4"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">This is just an example of large gaps in the current immigration system that should be plugged. It is also one of the reasons why laws like the one Arizona are passed and why there is such a strong backlash against illegal immigrants. When qualified US citizens are passed over for US taxpayer funded jobs to bring in a foreign national, there is bound to be a backlash. And the depressed economic situation adds to that backlash and frustration.</span></font></div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:</div><br class="ecxApple-interchange-newline"><blockquote><div><br>Perhaps we should convict the employers even if they didn't know that they hired an illegal alien. It might make them care about due diligence when hiring someone a little bit more. I imagine that most of these people aren't being paid at executive levels, they are probably being paid at much less than minimum wage. That alone should be a sign that they don't have a legal status. I don't think it's a case of employers being duped by devious immigrants, they are in this with their eyes wide open.<br><br>Paul<br><br>lfalen wrote:<br><blockquote>This sounds good on the face of it. The problem is in how do you known if they are an illegal alien? Will people have to produce some sort of proof that they are a legal resident? These documents can and are forged. I have no problem with convecting employers if it can be proven that they knowingly hired illegals. This may be hard to prove.<br></blockquote><blockquote>Roger<br></blockquote><blockquote>-----Original message-----<br></blockquote><blockquote>From: "Mike Deleve" <a href="mailto:coolerfixer@roadrunner.com">coolerfixer@roadrunner.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote>Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:50:03 -0700<br></blockquote><blockquote>To: "Wayne Price" <a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>, "keely emerinemix" <a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law<br></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote> <br></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>It's incredibly easy. $100,000 mandatory fine with 1 year MANDATORY time in FEDERAL PRISON for anyone employing an illegal alien. Employers are taking advantage of the border jumpers, but the employment is why they come.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Price To: keely emerinemix Cc: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 5:30 PM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Keely,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> While I agree that this has opened a whole can of worms as far as profiling, DWM, etc, etc, What can or should be done about ILLEGAL immigrants?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> There is a process, for better or worse that allows folks that are not US citizens access to the US and to jobs in the US. From what I understand, the AZ law isn't going after<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> those folks at all. It is focused on the illegal immigrants.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Solutions?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:26 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Arizona Governor Signs a Controversial Immigration Bill<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> > > Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed a bill that would require<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> > the police to ask people about their immigration status if<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> > officers have any reason to suspect that they are in the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> > country illegally. (NY Times, April 23, 2010)<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> This is shameful.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> "Any reason to suspect" that someone is in the country illegally means simply that "anyone who looks Mexican" could have their race, language, ethnicity, customs become probable cause for questioning. The idea of "driving while Mexican" used to be a wry, sick joke. Now, it's a cornerstone for "law and order," and it reeks.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> I hope our local "Libertarians" and freedom lovers join me in condemning this bill with all vehemence. Because if not, the silence from their keyboards, fieldhouses, and offices would be deafening, given the incessant braying recently about the State's denial of rights, pronounced threats to liberty, and an alarming erosion of Constitutional and family values.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Keely<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> Keely<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Get started.=======================================================<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> =======================================================<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> =======================================================<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> =======================================================<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><blockquote> <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote>=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote>=======================================================<br></blockquote><blockquote><br></blockquote><blockquote> <br></blockquote><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div> <br /><hr />The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. <a href='http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4' target='_new'>Get busy.</a></body>
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