<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Paul,</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">I agree that this is an issue that there are no simple answers to. When you said "what we are now doing which is<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">holding illegal immigration to be a status that should be demonized", shouldn't it be?</span></span></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">I am NOT talking about those in this country legally, but those in the country illegally. Those folks that have jumped through the hoops have paid their dues so to speak and should</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">be welcomed and should be held up as great examples. Those however that have entered illegally, have in fact committed a federal crime and should be prosecuted, deported and barred</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">from re-entry.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Now, one of the areas that does impact us locally is with the certification that has to be submitted by employers to the Department of Labor to bring in foreign workers. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">The employer has to certify:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial, Verdana, sans-serif; line-height: 14px; "><ul style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 2em; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit; list-style-type: none; list-style-image: url(http://www.uscis.gov/images/green-bullet.gif); list-style-position: outside; "><li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage</span></font></li><li style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border-top-width: 0px; border-right-width: 0px; border-bottom-width: 0px; border-left-width: 0px; border-style: initial; border-color: initial; font-weight: inherit; font-style: inherit; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Hiring a foreign worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of similarly employed U.S. workers</span></font></li></ul><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">Just think about this when it involves the University and bringing in employees from outside the US. The University is saying, "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage". Well, what is that based on? Notice there is NO mention of "best qualified", just "qualified". For instance, a position becomes available at the University. Several people including US citizens, put in for the position and a foreign national is given there job. Now, when the University certifies to the federal government that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage" is it true? And is it even looked into or is the certification taken on face value and no subsequent investigation as to the truth or falsehood of the statement by the employer is made? And there is a pro-forma process where the notification is "posted" for two weeks outside an obscure office door where the other applicants are unlikely to ever see it and be able to contest the hiring decision. And a better question would be who makes the determination at the employer level that "There are insufficient available, qualified, and willing U.S. workers to fill the position being offered at the prevailing wage?" Some clerk? The University President? Who is held responsible IF a determination is made that the statement is false? What is the consequence? Currently, it doesn't appear to be any at all, so why would the "system" ever change? </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px;">This is just an example of large gaps in the current immigration system that should be plugged. It is also one of the reasons why laws like the one Arizona are passed and why there is such a strong backlash against illegal immigrants. When qualified US citizens are passed over for US taxpayer funded jobs to bring in a foreign national, there is bound to be a backlash. And the depressed economic situation adds to that backlash and frustration.</span></font></div></span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:15 AM, Paul Rumelhart wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br>Perhaps we should convict the employers even if they didn't know that they hired an illegal alien. It might make them care about due diligence when hiring someone a little bit more. I imagine that most of these people aren't being paid at executive levels, they are probably being paid at much less than minimum wage. That alone should be a sign that they don't have a legal status. I don't think it's a case of employers being duped by devious immigrants, they are in this with their eyes wide open.<br><br>Paul<br><br>lfalen wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">This sounds good on the face of it. The problem is in how do you known if they are an illegal alien? Will people have to produce some sort of proof that they are a legal resident? These documents can and are forged. I have no problem with convecting employers if it can be proven that they knowingly hired illegals. This may be hard to prove.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Roger<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">-----Original message-----<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">From: "Mike Deleve" <a href="mailto:coolerfixer@roadrunner.com">coolerfixer@roadrunner.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 18:50:03 -0700<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To: "Wayne Price" <a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a>, "keely emerinemix" <a href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">kjajmix1@msn.com</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"> <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It's incredibly easy. $100,000 mandatory fine with 1 year MANDATORY time in FEDERAL PRISON for anyone employing an illegal alien. Employers are taking advantage of the border jumpers, but the employment is why they come.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Price To: keely emerinemix Cc: <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 5:30 PM<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Racism Enshrined in Arizona Law<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Keely,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> While I agree that this has opened a whole can of worms as far as profiling, DWM, etc, etc, What can or should be done about ILLEGAL immigrants?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> There is a process, for better or worse that allows folks that are not US citizens access to the US and to jobs in the US. From what I understand, the AZ law isn't going after<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> those folks at all. It is focused on the illegal immigrants.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Solutions?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> On Apr 23, 2010, at 3:26 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Arizona Governor Signs a Controversial Immigration Bill<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> > > Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed a bill that would require<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> > the police to ask people about their immigration status if<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> > officers have any reason to suspect that they are in the<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> > country illegally. (NY Times, April 23, 2010)<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> This is shameful.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> "Any reason to suspect" that someone is in the country illegally means simply that "anyone who looks Mexican" could have their race, language, ethnicity, customs become probable cause for questioning. The idea of "driving while Mexican" used to be a wry, sick joke. Now, it's a cornerstone for "law and order," and it reeks.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> I hope our local "Libertarians" and freedom lovers join me in condemning this bill with all vehemence. Because if not, the silence from their keyboards, fieldhouses, and offices would be deafening, given the incessant braying recently about the State's denial of rights, pronounced threats to liberty, and an alarming erosion of Constitutional and family values.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Keely<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> Keely<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> <a href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. 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