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Roger, I wonder if you would make your "Nazis were leftists" argument to the scholars Saundra referenced, as well as to the historians and political scientists who are in near-unanimous consensus that this is not the case. You are simply wrong on this point. Stalin may have said that a lie becomes true if you repeat it enough times, but I wonder if you're under the impression that an error of fact becomes less so the more you dig your heels in to defend it.<br><br>Because that would also be wrong, albeit almost as embarrassing as the initial point you made. <br><br><font style="" color="#8064a2"><font style="font-size: 12pt;" size="3"><font style="" face="Verdana">Keely<br>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<br></font></font></font><br><br><br><br>> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:00:05 -0700<br>> From: lfalen@turbonet.com<br>> To: v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm; thansen@moscow.com; garrettmc@verizon.net<br>> CC: vision2020@moscow.com<br>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> <br>> Saundra<br>> I do not know how you can continue to insist that the Nazis were on the right, when the basic difference between left and right is that the left believes in varying degrees of government control and the right believes in free markets and individual freedom to varying degrees.There are of course some exceptions to this as some but not all of those on the left believe in freedom in thing regarding sex and some but not all of those on the right would like to regulate it. It gets confusing as some on the lett want to prohibit any expression of religion in the schools, while some on the right would like to prohibit the teaching of evolution or demand that Intelligent Design be taught in science classes. The basics though is a matter of economics. You might have some grounds for your position based on the fact that some dictators allow for the free market to operate. They are not on the right as far as individual freedom is concerned. When I took political science from Robert Hos!<br>> ack, he<br>> described the various ideologies as a circle rather than a straight line. In this view the extreme right and extreme left would meet. If you except that view. you would again have a point.<br>> The left is very good at taking things that are perceived as bad and hanging it on those that the disagree with(Nazi, racist, etc). and taking those things that have a favorable connotation( liberal and progressive) and adopting it for themselves. This was born out very well in the last election. When anyone who disagreed with Obama was labeled a racist. This had the desired effect of making some people reluctant to comment. Stalin said "If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth" At least the perceivrd truth. This is what is taking place here. The left is hypocritical when they said "We won, shut up and except it" They did not have this position when Bush won as they should not have.<br>> Roger<br>> <br>> -----Original message-----<br>> From: "Saundra Lund" v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm<br>> Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:21:44 -0700<br>> To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, "'Tom Hansen'" thansen@moscow.com, "'Garrett Clevenger'" garrettmc@verizon.net<br>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> <br>> > Roger,<br>> > <br>> > As I said, ***read the primary source material*** referenced in the bibliography -- I have. I'm not asking you to accept Wikipedia's word for it but rather the expert words of the experts cited.<br>> > <br>> > Again, the definitions you keep repeating ABSOLUTELY DO NOT support your assertion that Nazism is on the left. The reality is that it is generally accepted by expert scholars that Nazism is on the ***far*** right. If you want to argue that, have at it, but you're going to have to have an approach other than sticking your fingers in your ears and repeatedly announcing, "BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!"<br>> > <br>> > My political science husband has suggested trying this un-academic approach with you since reason is failing to make it through your misunderstanding. Question: why, Roger, do you suppose around the world it's FAR RIGHT POLITICIANS -- and not leftist ones -- who have to denounce Nazism and any connection to Nazism???<br>> > <br>> > Answer: IT'S BECAUES NAZISM IS ON THE FAR RIGHT!!!!<br>> > <br>> > Sheesh!<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > Saundra Lund<br>> > Moscow, ID<br>> > <br>> > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.<br>> > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> > <br>> > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the author.*****<br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > -----Original Message-----<br>> > From: lfalen [mailto:lfalen@turbonet.com] <br>> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 12:37 PM<br>> > To: Saundra Lund; 'Tom Hansen'; 'Garrett Clevenger'<br>> > Cc: 'Moscow Vision 2020'<br>> > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> > <br>> > Saundra<br>> > Wikipedia is notorious for being inaccurate. Anyone can post to it. Try Merriam-Webster. My source is Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, copyright 1997, page 767. Nazism- The body and economic doctrines held and put into effect by the National Socialist German Workers Party in the Third Reich including the totalitarian principle of government, state control of all industry, predominance of groups assumed to be racially superior, and or the supremacy of the fuhrer.<br>> > Roger<br>> > -----Original message-----<br>> > From: "Saundra Lund" v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm<br>> > Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 11:46:09 -0700<br>> > To: "'lfalen'" lfalen@turbonet.com, "'Tom Hansen'" thansen@moscow.com, "'Garrett Clevenger'" garrettmc@verizon.net<br>> > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> > <br>> > > Hi Roger,<br>> > > <br>> > > First, we're enjoying the pheasants, too -- I'm thinking their temporary<br>> > > disappearance was the effect of a brutal winter and wet spring with their<br>> > > associated high rates of mortality. I'm glad you're enjoying the pheasants<br>> > > and quail as much as we are!<br>> > > <br>> > > Second, I give up on you. No one is arguing with the Merriam-Webster<br>> > > definitions but rather with your extrapolations from those definitions --<br>> > > that's where you are dead wrong. Period.<br>> > > <br>> > > "Nazism (Nationalsozialismus, National Socialism) was the ideology and<br>> > > practice of the Nazi Party and of Nazi Germany.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] It<br>> > > was a unique variety of fascism that involved biological racism and<br>> > > anti-Semitism.[9] Nazism presented itself as politically syncretic,<br>> > > incorporating policies, tactics and philosophies from right- and left-wing<br>> > > ideologies; in practice, Nazism was a far right form of politics.[10]."<br>> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism<br>> > > <br>> > > Read the primary source materials provided in the bibliography, and then let<br>> > > us know you Get It. Or at least provide an intelligent rebuttal of the<br>> > > position of the credible scholars that Nazism is ***far*** right rather than<br>> > > just repeating your personal and erroneous opinion.<br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > Saundra Lund<br>> > > Moscow, ID<br>> > > <br>> > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>> > > nothing.<br>> > > ~ Edmund Burke<br>> > > <br>> > > ***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2010 through life plus<br>> > > 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<br>> > > the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>> > > author.*****<br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > > -----Original Message-----<br>> > > From: vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<br>> > > On Behalf Of lfalen<br>> > > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:35 AM<br>> > > To: Tom Hansen; Garrett Clevenger<br>> > > Cc: Moscow Vision 2020<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> > > <br>> > > I give up on you guys. These were not my definitions that I sent Wayne<br>> > > Price, they are from Merriam-Webster. If you do not believe me, check your<br>> > > dictionary. If you want to rewrite the dictionary, maybe you should go join<br>> > > the Flat Earth Society.<br>> > > As for being on the left. The left wing in the 20's embraced both Hitler and<br>> > > Mussolini up untill the World War II started. They also originated Eugenics.<br>> > > Hitler picked it from them. Both Margaret Sanger and Oliver Wendell Homes<br>> > > supported Eugenics. If you want verification Tom, look it up on Google. It<br>> > > is easy to find.<br>> > > Roger<br>> > > <br>> > > Note to Saundra- In a post of yours a couple of years ago, you asked where<br>> > > have all the pheasants gone. They are back in my yard and pasture. I enjoy<br>> > > watching them and the quail.<br>> > > -----Original message-----<br>> > > From: "Tom Hansen" thansen@moscow.com<br>> > > Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:17:46 -0700<br>> > > To: "Garrett Clevenger" garrettmc@verizon.net<br>> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?<br>> > > <br>> > > > Exactly.<br>> > > > <br>> > > > What was your first clue, Roger, that the Nazis were/are far left?<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Their systematic execution of homosexuals?<br>> > > > <br>> > > > The elimination of individual rights?<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Or simply their attempt to destroy democracy?<br>> > > > <br>> > > > Tom Hansen<br>> > > > Moscow, Idaho<br>> > > > <br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > Roger writes:<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > "It is convenient for the left to place them on the right. this makes it<br>> > > > > easier for them to demonise the right and marginalize them by<br>> > > > > association."<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > Er, isn't this what Roger just did by saying "The Nazis are on the<br>> > > left."?<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > I'll continue his quote to make his nazi one more realisitic.<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > "They ... may want freedom for themselves, but not for others. This<br>> > > does<br>> > > > > not place them on the {left}, who wants freedom for everyone. {nazis}<br>> > > > > basically are kooks and cannot be categorized as being left or right."<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > So Roger is part right, even if he is or isn't "on the right."<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > Garrett<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > > List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>> > > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<br>> > > > > http://www.fsr.net<br>> > > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > ><br>> > > > <br>> > > > <br>> > > > "The Pessimist complains about the wind, the Optimist expects it to change<br>> > > > and the Realist adjusts his sails."<br>> > > > <br>> > > > - Unknown<br>> > > > <br>> > > > <br>> > > > =======================================================<br>> > > > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > > > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > > =======================================================<br>> > > <br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> > > http://www.fsr.net <br>> > > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> > > =======================================================<br>> > > <br>> > > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>> =======================================================<br>> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>> http://www.fsr.net <br>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>> =======================================================<br> <br /><hr />The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. <a href='http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5' target='_new'>Get busy.</a></body>
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