<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Garrett,<div><br></div><div>You actually hit on several of the key points about the conflagration over in Iraq. THE one big item that has never been determined, and you hit on it is: "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">success on that battlefield".</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 13px; ">What is the end state supposed to be? What is success in Iraq? What is victory? And if we don't know what that is, WHY are we still there? </span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">One of the primary things I was taught at both the Army Command and General Staff College and the Marine Corps Command and Staff College is, BEFORE you take action, what is the mission?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">If the mission was to toss out Sadam, we accomplished that, time to come home. If the mission was an elected government in Iraq, we accomplished that, time to come home. </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">We are bleeding in Iraq, not in tremendous amounts of blood, but economically. If you take a look at all the money that we, the tax payers have spent in Iraq after either one of the two key events</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">listed above, think of what that could have accomplished in the US! Would have more than rebuilt all the schools in the US. Would have rebuilt the failing infrastructure of roads and bridges.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Would have paid for a universal health care system.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">One of THE key failures for both Iraq and Afghanistan is that we, as a nation DID NOT go to war. The military/industrial complex went to war at the expense of the people, and are economically</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">benefiting from it.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Have you seen any government program for "war bonds" for Iraq or Afghanistan? Nope</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">is the nation involved in the conflict or is it just the military industrial complex?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Have you seen the manufacturers geared up for war production or is the military sucking hind tit for equipment? </span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Have you seen the entire population involved with and/or supporting the conflict?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Who ever heard of a nation going into a recession/depression during a war that is being conducted properly?</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">And WAR, real war is (or should be) THE last option, but by God, when a NATION goes to war, it goes to war and doesn't pussy foot around. It's up to the readers to decide if we have gone to war, or</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">what this thing is we've been stuck with.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;">Just some thoughts</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px;"><br></span></font><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div><div>On Mar 17, 2010, at 10:53 PM, Garrett Clevenger wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Matt asks:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">"how Bush/Obama or whomever can ensure success on a battlefield? Aren't all battles a gamble, thus the last option? I don't feel Iraq was a total failure but one we should have not involved ourselves with."</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">I think the answer to your second question helps answer your first. The Iraq war was not the last option. We were not being attacked. They were not behind 911. It turns out they probably didn't have wmds either.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">We did not need to invade Iraq, especially considering Afghanastan was being neglected. </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">The whole war was based on false pretenses. Those who challenged that were ridiculed. But the facts were apparent even to those living over there having bombs dropped on their heads.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Don't you think it is normal for them to resent a country that propped up Saddam, left them hanging during the 90's and then came back, taking control of the oil fields before Baghdad?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Don't you think they saw the war machine gearing up under sketchy circumstances?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Don't you think having a loved one killed by a US soldier is going to piss them off?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Don't you think they heard the religious rhetoric coming from the US military and government?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Why would they trust American power? </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Why would they all of a sudden get along with each other?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Shock and aweing another people is not the best way to get them to like you. From the beginning there were mulitiple reasons why an insurgency would develop which would thwart any success.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">As soon as you call your war "Infinite Justice" and name your weapons "hellfire" missles, you are going to shake the religious hornets nest.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">You can't beat that. Fanaticism turns people into suicide bombers. They will always be a threat.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">I think you have to walk in the shoes of the people you are fighting. Until you understand their motives for hating you, you won't have any option but to keep fighting. And you can't kill them all without causing too much damage (death and destruction) that in itself feeds the flame of resentment.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">I don't think we can make people over there get along. If they don't have a common enemy to hate (the US) they are probably going to keep killing each other based on their historical grievences, competition or just to survive.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Saddam kept a lid on the violence that erupted.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">The question is how long, how much blood and how much money are going to be on our hands until we realized realistically there isn't going to be success on that battlefield?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Call me pessimistic, but I don't have much hope for humanity over there. Human emotions are raw from lack of love and nourishment. Their bodies and souls are sick. Feeding that with violence will only continue to make those people more unhealthy, and thus more likely to resort to their animal natures. I have no idea how to solve that.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Fortunately our own v2020 rivalries aren't at quite the temperature as a sunni vs shiite.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">But to answer your question, you can't have success on the battlefield if the war your fighting is based on lies and the wrong reason, which the Iraq war is.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">Thanks for requesting my opinion, however long winded and wrong it may be...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; min-height: 15px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; line-height: 15px; font: normal normal normal 13px/normal Arial; ">gclev</div></td></tr></tbody></table>=======================================================<br> List services made available by First Step Internet, <br> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br> <a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br> <a href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>=======================================================</blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>