<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div></div><div>To clarify, I'm not defending James and what he did. Perhaps he should be executed. My intent was not to judge the punishment. I'll leave that to you all.</div><div><br></div><div>Joe had asked if anyone knew more details, and I provided some, with a little analysis of why I think James is being let out of prison early on probation.</div><div><br></div><div>I encourage those who know more to put it out there. This was a real situation and we should all be aware of how it played out so that we can make a reasonable interpretation.</div><div> </div>Garrett Clevenger<div><br></div><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font
size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Saundra Lund <v2020@ssl.fastmail.fm><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Garrett Clevenger <garrettmc@verizon.net>; vision2020@moscow.com<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat, November 7, 2009 9:22:32 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [Vision2020] WTF?<br></font><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">While I continue to hold Garrett in high regard, I’m getting
by the recurring “blame the victim” tenor in this discussion.
The best analogy I can find is that he’s presented one side only of the old
defense, “he needed killing.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I could certainly find lots of blame in this picture were I so
inclined, and it would encompass more than just blaming the victim and would absolutely
include those who chose by their behavior to cause what Garrett calls a “crime
of passion.” The situation certainly sounds like it was FUBAR, but
it wasn’t only the dead victim actions that played a pivotal role in what
happened – there were terrible choices by several people all along the way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>Obviously he would be jealous of the affair, but
he overreacted and set up the circustance under which he was gunned down”<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Why didn’t the shooter call the cops for help when he received
the weird phone call in the wee morning hours, particularly since he later told
the cops that the victim had come at him many times before & since everyone
in that weird circle seemed well aware of previous reported threats? He
made a <b>choice</b> not to, and that <b>choice</b> had fatal consequences for
the victim.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">And, let’s not forget that the shooter had a gun & the
victim didn’t.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>It seems to me that it would send the message that
risky behaviour can lead to death.”<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Yes, the shooter’s risky behavior lead to the death of the
victim, plain and simple. That risky behavior lead to the death of a man,
and the cost that life was five months, which I think is absolutely insane.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I’m personally uncomfortable that the victim was shot
several times after the first “heart” shot killed him instantly.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">However, it seems this whole situation was incredibly bizarre and
convoluted, so while I can understand – just based on what was reported
and has been said here – that perhaps this wasn’t a killing that
required locking up the shooter for a decade, five months is absolutely crazy.
The shooter is responsible for voluntarily and unjustifiably killing another
human being, and the punishment absolutely should be more than five months in
jail and 15 years probation or human life is cheapened for all of us.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>Perhaps it's just an extension of self-defense.”<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Bull crap – the shooter apparently knew that defense
wouldn’t wash, which is likely why he copped a plea. The killer
himself didn’t even have enough confidence in that perversion of a
legitimate defense to present it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>Lots of people are assholes. Maybe James is,
too.”<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I guess time will tell, and hopefully there won’t be another
dead or battered person to make it indisputably clear.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Certainly, he has a <b>huge</b> moral obligation to the child of
the man he killed. The fatherless child deserves no less than to never
want for anything in her life, and the killer needs to spend the rest of his
life working to ensure that her childhood is financially secure and that she
can get a college education – that child needs to be his first financial priority
until she’s fully grown. It’s the very least he can do to try
to in some way make amends for killing her father.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>The saddest thing for me is that Tyler's daughter
will never know her father, but one day she'll deserve to know what happened to
her dad. What's that going to do to her?”<span style="
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">I can only hope that the adults involved have enough sense to get
professional guidance and grow up a h*ll of a lot! Blaming the victim –
her father -- certainly won’t do her any favors. I have no idea how
you’d ever explain to a child that her father’s life was only worth
five months . . . </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Garrett wrote:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>The criminal justice system is underfunded and
over stretched. There are only so many prison beds. I can
understand why those intimate with the system are looking for ways to keep
people out. They found someone in this case. Perhaps they would
think differently if they had unlimited resources.”<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">While I agree with much of the above, I completely reject the
notion that society is better off kicking violent offenders – which the
shooter is – out. Many, many, many people have had the opportunity
to commit “crimes of passion” yet have the self-restraint not to do
so in situations way more FUBAR than this. The fact that the shooter made
a long series of bad choices that resulted in the unnecessary death of the victim
at his hand puts him in a special category that deserves more punishment than
five flippin’ months in prison.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">OTOH, since he was given such a generous gift, he’d better
make the best of it by putting the fatherless child at the very top of his
financial priorities. If he doesn’t do so, then he’ll remain
nothing more than the dirt bag continuing to make the kind of irresponsible and
rotten <b>choices</b> that lead him to kill.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">“</span>I have a vested interest in getting my perspective
out there”</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">It’s a crime the victim isn’t around to get <b>his</b>
perspective out there, something everyone reading this thread should remember.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">And it’s a shame the victim’s genuine loved ones
aren’t here to get their perspectives out as well. There are always
at least two sides to every story, and I suspect those who genuinely loved
Tyler would have a different and just as valuable perspectives.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Saundra Lund</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">Moscow, ID</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
people to do nothing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">~ Edmund Burke</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;">***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009
through life plus 70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt,
or reproduce outside the Vision 2020 forum without the express written
permission of the author.*****</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri", "sans-serif";color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma", "sans-serif";">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Garrett Clevenger<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 06, 2009 7:47 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> vision2020@moscow.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Vision2020] WTF?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Wayne writes:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div><pre>"What this decision says is that in slightly modified form the unwritten law (It's OK to kill your spouse's lover) is in full operation in Latah County."</pre></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It was not a spouse's lover who was killed in this case.
It wasn't even the lover's spouse who was killed.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The guy killed found out his friend of many years had sex
with someone Tyler was not in a committed relationship with at the time.
It was not Tyler's spouse. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tyler and the woman have a kid together, and had an off and
on again relationship, but they were not a couple. Tyler had chosen to
not be with the woman, leaving child care mostly to her, over a several year
period. Obviously he would be jealous of the affair, but he overreacted
and set up the circustance under which he was gunned down. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">He was not an innocent victim who happened to be in the line
of fire of a deranged lunatic.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Strangely, Tyler aparently had a dream before he was killed
that James killed him. Obviously there was animosity between these to old
friends.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tyler went to James' house to confront him, leaving the
impression he expected to die. He threatened James's family. He had
attacked James in the past.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The drama Tyler instilled played out. It seems fate
worked in a mysterious way.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don writes:</p>
</div>
<div><pre>"Apparently though, 5-15yrs. somehow translates to 5mo. Great message for the next generation of lawmakers and the rational/logical thinking young adults running around screwing eachother."</pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times", "serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It seems to me that it would send the message that risky
behaviour can lead to death. That threatening another person, even a old
friend, can lead to tragic consequences. I suppose one could infer that
if you are that old friend who feels threatened then you can kill the
threatener and get off. Perhaps it's just an extension of self-defense.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I doubt this case is a blip in what's out there corrupting
our kids, in any case.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The saddest thing for me is that Tyler's daughter will never
know her father, but one day she'll deserve to know what happened to her dad.
What's that going to do to her?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The criminal justice system is underfunded and over
stretched. There are only so many prison beds. I can understand why
those intimate with the system are looking for ways to keep people out.
They found someone in this case. Perhaps they would think
differently if they had unlimited resources.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">g writes:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div><pre>"Clearly cold blooded killer, asshole, and once and future menace to society would be a much more accurate description."</pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times", "serif";"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I doubt what James did was out of cold-bloodedness.
Describing him as being cruel in his actions disregards the circumstances
around what happened, and waters down true cold-blooded behavior.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Lots of people are assholes. Maybe James is, too.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Future menace to society? If that's g's prophesy, one
might also say that throwing James in prison would make him crueler and more of
a potential menace, while ripping apart another family. Why should two
kids be out a dad?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Who's to say that James didn't save an innocent life by
killing someone wigged out? Who's to say Tyler wouldn't have killed
someone driving in his deranged state, or hurt someone else in frustration?
Worse things have happened in Moscow.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I didn't know Tyler well. I can't say what he was
thinking. I'm shocked by all this. It is hard to believe that
someone I almost married became the center of all this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I've thought about how if I ended up marrying her, Tyler
would still be alive.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">But I can't change the past, predict what might have
happened, or tell you how someone will turn out in the future. If someone
has that crystal ball, please show me sometime. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I feel pretty detached from all this as I was far removed
from the circumstances, but I have a vested interest in getting my perspective
out there, for what it's worth.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Garrett Clevenger</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div style="position:fixed"></div>
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