<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Saundra,<div><br></div><div>Your message below has also brought up another unintended consequence that has resulted from the insurance problem - Law suits!</div><div><br></div><div>"<font class="Apple-style-span" color="#040204">And, even for those able to make minimal contributions to an HSA, they may</font></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#040204">never get ahead. All it may take is your kid falling of his bike & breaking<br>his arm, or your daughter getting hit by a softball & needing stitches, or a<br>slip on the ice, or an asthma attack to wipe out the little saved . . . and<br>a good chunk of you annual salary to boot."</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div>A slip on the ice and underinsured? Result is to sue the property owner. Who threw the softball that resulted in little Susie needing stitched up? Sue them.<div>Billy falls off his bike due to an uneven sidewalk - Sue the property owner!</div><div><br></div><div>Folks that would normally just shake off the incident don't anymore. Because of the lack of insurance (or under insured) the solution is sue them.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Wayne</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Oct 6, 2009, at 1:07 AM, Saundra Lund wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Hi Again Paul,<br><br>You wrote:<br>" I'm not quite sure why my ginormous and presumably unearned salary has<br>become such a big issue. I was letting you know that there are at least a<br>few situations where people are happily saving money on this plan."<br><br>A couple of points.<br><br>I'll say *again* I'm truly glad Plan H is working well for you. As a member<br>of the UI community, I would certainly hope you would wish the same for the<br>UI employees -- that they have affordable access to health insurance that<br>works well for them -- who can afford nothing BUT Plan H that ISN'T working<br>well for them.<br><br>And, I apologize if it sounded like I was picking on your salary -- that<br>wasn't my intention. I don't know what you make, and until your response, I<br>didn't know you had no dependents, either. When I first started looking into<br>the whole health insurance debacle in this country, I learned that rural<br>parts of the country face unique challenges with respect to both health<br>*care* and health *insurance*. Looking for an easy quick & dirty<br>comparison, I thought I'd compare UI & BSU. The results were shocking, and<br>not in a good way. I then thought maybe I'd best check out ISU so I<br>wouldn't have a sample of one that could very well be skewed. When the<br>rates were identical, I checked out LCSC only to see that they have the same<br>excellent choices and prices as the other two, and that's when I learned<br>that the reason for the excellent choices and prices are because they are<br>part of the state pool.<br><br>Clearly, UI employees ***with families*** are at a HUGE financial<br>disadvantage with respect to health insurance, and that became my refrain.<br><br>However, the more I asked questions and talked to UI employees, the more I<br>heard that it's *not* just UI employees with families -- single employees<br>are unhappy, too, particularly those towards the bottom of the<br>university-wide compensation spread. If you're above that level, congrats<br>and I'm happy to assume you earn your salary just the same as the cleaning<br>specialist who's earning $21,000 a year :-)<br><br>I don't know how old you are, but allow me to point out that living on Ramen<br>noodles and pancakes is an entirely different thing when you are in your 20s<br>than when you are in your 40s . . . or older.<br><br>It sounds like Plan H is a really good fit for you, but if you've kept up<br>with the health care debate, you surely understand that HSAs really *aren't*<br>appropriate for a great many people, yet that turned out to be the *only*<br>affordable option for a lot of UI employees. You may also know that the<br>whole CDHC theory is hotly debated, and HSAs are perceived to be a<br>cornerstone of CDHC. I think for people who WANT to take the risk with what<br>is modified catastrophic only coverage, that's their choice; however, I<br>vehemently disagree with a large employer like UI pricing the vast majority<br>of employees with families out of anything BUT a high deductible HSA plan.<br>It's just completely immoral, IMHO.<br><br>But, let's get back to my main point, please: what on earth is going on<br>that UI employees are at such a HUGE health insurance disadvantage compared<br>to other state employees?! If the 25,000+ state employees -- including<br>those just 30 miles away at LCSC -- were all in the same boat, that would be<br>one thing, but employees in the state pool are at a distinct advantage when<br>it comes to health insurance. In addition to the real-life difference this<br>makes to UI employees, it's also harmful when it comes to recruiting faculty<br>and staff, which isn't good for the UI community.<br><br>You also wrote:<br>"If you are putting money into the HSA, then you will have some in the<br>account that can be used when trying to meet your higher deductible. I<br>understand that the first year is a crap shoot - you may need to pay $X when<br>you have yet put that much into the account."<br><br>But, Paul, that's a big IF in your first sentence. Quite a few of the<br>people I know who were financially forced into Plan H aren't able to benefit<br>much -- if at all -- from the HSA because they just can't afford to<br>contribute -- or contribute much -- to an HSA. Rewind to my example of a<br>single parent with two children with a gross pay of $40,000 and tell me how<br>much you realistically think he or she could contribute to an HSA. We know<br>there are more than a few UI employees who qualify for food stamps, for<br>Pete's sake -- it's not difficult to understand how those in that situation<br>just can't contribute to an HSA, is it?<br><br>And, even for those able to make minimal contributions to an HSA, they may<br>never get ahead. All it may take is your kid falling of his bike & breaking<br>his arm, or your daughter getting hit by a softball & needing stitches, or a<br>slip on the ice, or an asthma attack to wipe out the little saved . . . and<br>a good chunk of you annual salary to boot.<br><br>You also wrote:<br>"What are the differences in coverage between Plan A and Plan H? I'm not<br>trying to claim that Plan H is better, I simply don't know."<br><br>Ron sent you the link, so you can check that out, but I'll throw out a<br>couple of examples for those who just want a quick glimpse. The deductibles<br>are dramatically different with Plan A being a heck of a lot better ($350<br>individual / $1050 family aggregate), and Plan B being even better ($175<br>individual / $525 family aggregate), and Plan H sucking ($1150 single /<br>$2300 family). Of course, the employee premium is higher for Plans A & B.<br><br>But, there are other very real differences as well. For those able to<br>afford Plan A (or Plan B) premiums, they can see a doctor if they get sick<br>for a very reasonable *pre-deductible* co-pay. For those on Plan H, you pay<br>EVERYTHING (except wellness/preventative care) *until* you meet the<br>deductible.<br><br>For those able to afford Plan A, should you or a family member need an<br>ambulance, it will only cost you a $50 *pre-deductible* co-pay. For those<br>with Plan H, you'll pay the entire amount unless or until you've met the<br>deductible, and then insurance will cover 70% of UCR costs.<br><br>And, of course, the coverage levels are less for those with Plan H even once<br>the deductible is met. For someone with Plan A or (B), you have a $25 (or<br>$15) co-pay if you have to go to the QuickCare; that same visit will cost<br>someone with Plan H about $41 IF they have met the deductible. Generally<br>speaking, Plan A pays 80%, Plan B pays 90%, and Plan H pays 70%.<br><br>OTOH, the family out-of-pocket maximums are lower for those on Plan H than<br>for those on the UI's Plan A.<br><br>Paul, both Rose & I have tried to get stats for many of the questions you're<br>asking. Previously, statistics were readily available; now, the UI acts<br>like you are asking for top secret information when you ask. Frankly, if<br>the UI wants to act secretive and suspicious -- and to tell different<br>stories to different audiences -- I'm going think there's a reason for the<br>complete lack of transparency until proven otherwise.<br><br>You also wrote:<br>"It's my understanding that we haven't been on the State plan for years, if<br>ever. What would we have paid if we had stayed with Regence?"<br><br>According to the Benefits person I spoke with, the UI has never been in the<br>state pool. My understanding is the question has arisen periodically -- I<br>think someone has asked it at every Open Enrollment meeting I've attended --<br>and the explanation has always been that it would be disadvantageous to UI<br>employees because we are a healthier pool.<br><br>Clearly, that explanation hasn't held any water for at least the last two<br>years yet it continues to be the explanation offered.<br><br>I don't know what the premiums would be had we stayed with Regence because<br>the UI jumped ship for FY04, IIRC.<br><br>However, I can tell you that the City of Moscow has Regence as their<br>carrier, and they are looking at a 4.5% premium increase. The City<br>apparently covers the cost for employees as well as 50% of the cost for<br>dependents, if I correctly understood Mr. Riedner's comments in the<br>9/28/2009 Administrative Committee meeting. Because employees didn't get<br>raises, the City is proposing to absorb the 4.5% increase so that employees<br>don't see their wages eroded, and I say KUDOS to the idea.<br><br>Of course, I don't know what City employees pay in premiums or details of<br>the coverage, but I sure hope our hard-working City employees have better<br>coverage than the two-thirds of hard-working UI employees stuck with the<br>high deductible Plan H.<br><br>Again, if all state employees were in the same rotten boat as UI employees,<br>that would be one thing, but they aren't. State employees have two<br>infinitely more affordable health insurance options in addition to an<br>affordable high deductible plan where one could CHOOSE to individually open<br>an HSA, if I correctly understand the regulations (no guarantee there!).<br><br>If you -- or anyone else -- has read this far, thanks :-)<br><br><br><br>Saundra Lund<br>Moscow, ID<br><br>The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do<br>nothing.<br>~ Edmund Burke<br><br>***** Original material contained herein is Copyright 2009 through life plus<br>70 years, Saundra Lund. Do not copy, forward, excerpt, or reproduce outside<br>the Vision 2020 forum without the express written permission of the<br>author.*****<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Paul Rumelhart [<a href="mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com">mailto:godshatter@yahoo.com</a>] <br>Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:21 PM<br>To: Saundra Lund<br>Cc: 'Wayne Price'; 'Moscow Vision 2020'; 'Rosemary Rose Huskey'<br>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ID Public Records Law: UI<br><br>Saundra,<br><br>I had every confidence that you had crunched the numbers. I just wanted <br>to know what plans and what options. More below.<br><br>Saundra Lund wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">Paul wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"Where does the $191 per pay period number come from? Which plan, what<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">options?"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><lots of great information snipped for brevity><br><blockquote type="cite">Paul, I'm truly glad the CHOICE you made to go with Plan H is working for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">you, but I would certainly hope you've not lost the humanity to understand<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">that people who earn half what you make feel very differently about being<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">financially forced into Plan H. Extend yourself, Paul, and talk to<br></blockquote>someone<br><blockquote type="cite">at the UI whose gross pay is $25,000 per year, and ask them how easy it is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">for them to make ANY contribution to the HSA or to meet the $1150<br></blockquote>individual<br><blockquote type="cite">/ $2300 family deductible. Then, find a single parent (and there are more<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">than a few) at UI whose gross pay is $40,000 per year, and ask that parent<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">how Plan H is working for them.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>I'm not quite sure why my ginormous and presumably unearned salary has <br>become such a big issue. I was letting you know that there are at least <br>a few situations where people are happily saving money on this plan. <br>The amount I put away into the HSA was factored into my resulting $3 <br>health care payment.<br><br>I started working at the U of I making minimum wage, so I know something <br>about eating Top Ramen and pancakes to get by. Not real poverty by any <br>means, but not the country club atmosphere you seem to believe I've <br>insulated myself with.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">In short, it's NOT. Because they can't AFFORD real insurance like Plan A<br></blockquote>or<br><blockquote type="cite">Plan B where you can see a doctor for an affordable pre-deductible co-pay,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">they can't AFFORD to see doctors for things like bronchitis or pneumonia<br></blockquote>or<br><blockquote type="cite">ear aches or strep -- or headaches that may be a symptom of hypertension<br></blockquote>--<br><blockquote type="cite">without becoming unable to afford to EAT or pay their rent or put gas in<br></blockquote>the<br><blockquote type="cite">cars to get to work or pay child care so they can work. I know several UI<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">employees who have had to stop taking medication for chronic health<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">conditions because they can't AFFORD to pay the entire monthly cost of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">medication until they meet the deductible :-(<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>Of course the landscape changes if you have dependents, or if you have <br>chronic ailments, or if you have other drains on your bank account. I <br>agree with that.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">I can also tell you, Paul, that even the single Plan H UI employees I've<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">showed the costs to would much rather pay $30 per month for that PPO<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">coverage or $37 per month for traditional coverage than to be stuck with<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Plan H.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>Perhaps I'm unique then. I like plan H. I made it through the first <br>year, so I now have enough in my HSA to cover my deductibles. I like <br>the lower ceiling. I go to the doctor only when I have to anyway, I'm <br>covered if something horrible happens, and I pay less than I do for my <br>parking permit for it. I have an account that, gods willing, I can use <br>as an extra retirement account someday. Or as a source of needed cash <br>if I do have something tragic happen to me.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">It's a damn shame that UI employees are getting totally SCREWED on health<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">insurance while those in the state insurance pool continue to be offered<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">real and affordable health insurance.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">And, here's another little factoid the UI isn't talking about: when<br></blockquote>people<br><blockquote type="cite">can't AFFORD to go to the doctor when they are sick, they are far less<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">likely to take advantage of wellness/preventative care benefits. So, for<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">all those UI employees -- and their families -- who were financially<br></blockquote>FORCED<br><blockquote type="cite">into Plan H, the wellness/preventative care benefit most likely won't pay<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">off over time by helping keep health care costs down as intended.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Paul, I don't have statistics for this year because the UI has become less<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and less transparent about the information over the last couple of years,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">but I can tell you that for CY08, something like 67% of employees went<br></blockquote>with<br><blockquote type="cite">Plan H, 26% were able to afford Plan A, and only 7% could afford Plan B.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>Without taking this as an attack or anything, what does the Plan H <br>participant pay compared to the Plan A participant if they take full <br>advantage of the HSA? Just to get the numbers. If you are putting <br>money into the HSA, then you will have some in the account that can be <br>used when trying to meet your higher deductible. I understand that the <br>first year is a crap shoot - you may need to pay $X when you have yet <br>put that much into the account.<br><br>What are the differences in coverage between Plan A and Plan H? I'm not <br>trying to claim that Plan H is better, I simply don't know.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">And, to show you just how completely out of touch UI administration is<br></blockquote>with<br><blockquote type="cite">the financial realities for their employees, they thought the reason for<br></blockquote>the<br><blockquote type="cite">"success" of Plan H was because they "actively marketed" it. <snort> How<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">they can remain oblivious to the fact that Plan H is the ONLY coverage<br></blockquote>many<br><blockquote type="cite">employees can afford is a mystery to me, particularly since employees<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">certainly haven't been quiet about it!<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Paul also wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">"I don't know if we can get these numbers, but it would be nice to know<br></blockquote>what<br><blockquote type="cite">LCSC pays average per employee compared to the U of I. That might be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">something we can sink our teeth into."<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I really don't think that would be helpful because they are fortunate to<br></blockquote>be<br><blockquote type="cite">in the state pool. What you'd want to see is the average pay of those in<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the state pool compared to the average UI employee.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">In looking back through all the meeting minutes, it's a CRUEL JOKE that UI<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">employees have been told at every turn it wouldn't be advantageous for the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">UI to participate in the state insurance pool because UI employees are a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">healthier pool and we'd see our costs go up were we to join the state<br></blockquote>pool.<br><blockquote type="cite">In fact, when questioned in ***2007*** Lloyd Mues offered the same<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">explanation yet again and added that the state pool rates wouldn't look as<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">good come ***July 1, 2008*** as they then looked. Fortunately for all the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">state employees -- and unfortunately for UI employees -- Mues was wrong,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">wrong, wrong.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For any who are interested in seeing for themselves the details of the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">coverage those in the state pool are offered, check out:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://adm.idaho.gov/insurance/contracts.htm">http://adm.idaho.gov/insurance/contracts.htm</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">For FY10, check out:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><a href="http://adm.idaho.gov/insurance/grp/contracts/FY2010/GI_Handbook_Summary_FY20">http://adm.idaho.gov/insurance/grp/contracts/FY2010/GI_Handbook_Summary_FY20</a><br><blockquote type="cite">10_final_CCD.pdf<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Current rates are on page 14.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">State pool rate increases positively pale in comparison to what my family<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">has seen with the UI in recent years. Our family premiums increased 23%<br></blockquote>for<br><blockquote type="cite">FY07 (7/1/2006 - 6/30/2007). We then had a WHOPPING 69% premium increase<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">effective 7-1-2007, and we *would* have had another 70% premium increase<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">just six months later effective 1-1-2008, but that's when we were<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">financially forced into Plan H.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>It's my understanding that we haven't been on the State plan for years, <br>if ever. What would we have paid if we had stayed with Regence?<br><br>Paul<br><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>