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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">"It took you and your friends all day to come
up with this? "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Actually it took about five minutes and what "friends" would you be
referring to? Do you envision a shadowy and ill-defined "them" that is out to
get you or is it that you believe that everybody hears voices
directing them to make schoolyard threats they couldn't possibly make good
on and rambling, incoherent screeds via their i-phones?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">"You completely missed the point. I'm not
bringing up old news. It would take more time than I care to take to correct the
lies and distortions of your account of the original event, for one
thing."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>You're not? My mistake. I could have sworn I read something about it in the
post I was responding to.</DIV>
<DIV>I urge anyone who might be bored enough to care to simply read the link. It
should be all the correction required. I'll leave it to others to make up their
own minds.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>As to the rest we're back to the rambling screed thing and it's past my bed
time...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>g</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>P.S. Be sure and check your closets and behind the drapes before you turn
in. "They" just might could be anywhere!</DIV></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=ophite@gmail.com
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision
2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 01, 2009 7:50
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags'
Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>It took you and your friends all day to come up with this? </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You completely missed the point. I'm not bringing up old news. It would
take more time than I care to take to correct the lies and distortions of your
account of the original event, for one thing.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The point is I wouldn't have expected you to carry on the way you did
given that you think the first amendment protects free speech, as long as it
is vague (which is the latest version of your defense of members of the
lunitic fringe right if we believe 1 below).</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So as long as threats are vague they are protected as free speach!?! And
this principle is backed by what amendment? By what set of cases? By what
argument?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I respect your defense of free speech but you sure pick the strangest
examples -- revisionism about slavery, insults directed at gays and Muslims,
vague threats directed toward a black president coupled with folks weilding
guns attending his speeches. It is almost as if speech has to be at least
insulting to a minority, in addition to being vague. My speech is worthy of
criticism because it wasn't vague and it was directed at a white guy.
Convienient view!<SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.289062); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.222656); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.222656)"> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Sep 1, 2009, at 6:43 PM, "g. crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Au contraire, mon pauvre con fraire! You are
incorrect in multiple (read all) instances. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Vague? Please allow me to quote
verbatim "<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>I will come to your place of
work and punch you right in the nose."</FONT> Your notion of vague is
as sketchy as your self control. One can but wonder what you might
consider overt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. I reposted your silly, impotent threat
directly to the V. Dale picked it up from there. I am under zero obligation
to keep unsolicited junk e-mail private.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3. At no time did I assert that you had no
right to make moronic threats that you were incapable of carrying out.
Should any of the above be in doubt, refresh your failing memory
at:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><A
href="http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2006-May/029780.html">[Vision2020]
thin skinned? </A><A name=29780> </A> <EM>g. crabtree Thu May 18
20:07:59 PDT 2006</EM> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>4. Hypocrite? My reason for reposting your
shining example of poor impulse control was driven by the fact that just
a few days prior you had elected to edify our community with an
editorial in the local daily paper on your version of proper community
dialog and tolerance. When it comes to hypocrites of stature I would think
you might search a little closer to home.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On a side note, why is it when this subject
comes up via others you shriek like a stiffed strumpet but when you imagine
it works for your weak to nonexistent argument you trot it out like a prized
pony. Hypocrite indeed!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=ophite@gmail.com
href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas Schou</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow
Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 01, 2009
7:46 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama
Tags' Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You certainly cared when I made a vague threat to you a few years
back and you shipped a personal letter from me to you to you friend Dale
to post on his website. We didn't here much talk about free speech
then!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I have to say, you are the biggest hypocrite and the most one sided
zealot I have ever met! Which is funny since you are constantly accusing
others of hypocracy.<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Sep 1, 2009, at 7:17 AM, "g. crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></A><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Truth be told, I don't much care about
"vague threats" one way or the other. I believe in the first amendment
protection of free speech even if it's distasteful or inflammatory to
some. I don't believe that for one group it's "the highest form of
patriotism" and for another it's "hate speech." Stupid and
ill-considered remarks are an equal right not a "two wrongs don't make a
right" as one of our more deranged posters has suggested.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I am going to have to take your word for
the beliefs of "AR-15 toting dude" and friends. As you
probably know, I disagree with most of what you claim they profess. That
said, I don't think that exercising a protected right qualifies as a
vague threat. Arizona, along with Idaho are open carry states and as
such what AR15td was doing was completely legal. If that makes someone
"uncomfortable" or scared that is their right as well. Americans are
entitled to their feelings. I find your attitude in this regard strange
however. This (Idaho) being a concealed carry state as well as
open, the number of firearms that surround you on a daily basis is
rather large. Every major group you are among contains dozens of
lethal pieces of hardware. Do you find this debilitating?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, your qualms in order. Where you feel
"comfortable" is a purely personal concern. It is not the responsibility
of others. Speaking strictly for myself, tie dye and the public
display of hacky sacks makes me a little queasy but I suck it
up and deal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Second and third, the waste of
resources issue is a non-starter. The SS and law enforcement is there
anyway and the way the government wastes resources, this doesn't even
amount to a tiny portion of a drop in the bucket. If this is truly a
concern for you, a better, easier, and cheaper solution would be
for you to insist that the president stay in the whitehouse and try to
accomplish something useful and stop with the 24/7/365 campaign for
adulation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Your fourth and final point I don't really
understand. Are you suggesting that police and responsible firearms
owners will suddenly become unhinged and commence with a recreation of
the OK corral? That the guns will suddenly develop a mind of their own
(shades of the dumbest of Steven King's pap) and turn on their owners?
Or are you suggesting, as a great many of those with your "strong and
contrary beliefs" do, that one group of peoples rights should be taken
away to cover for some vague and unlikely possibility and to make
another group a little more at ease?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com">Andreas
Schou</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=jampot@roadrunner.com href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g.
crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow
Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 31, 2009
8:17 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama
Tags' Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Gary --<BR><BR>I'm just not sure on your position here.
Do you think people should be making vague threats against the
President or not? Or are you just accusing the liberals here of being
hypocrites without taking a position yourself?<BR><BR>Here's your way
out. I'm a little confused as to why you didn't take it: <BR><BR>These
aren't my people; I'm not responsible for them. They're crazy; I'm
not. The assault rifle guys are from the We The People Foundation,
which is an advocacy organization for tax protesters. They're also
birthers. They print their own money. They want to return to the gold
standard. They believe the Venezuelan government stole the last US
election by tampering with US voting machines. They bear little, if
any, relationship to you -- by which I mean, "the near side of the far
right." I find some of your beliefs distasteful; however, I find them
comprehensible. Not so much with these lunatics.<BR><BR>I also
mentioned that I found the protester with the AR-15 a little scary.
<BR><BR>He showed up at a Presidential rally toting an assault rifle.
His pastor's praying for Obama's death. He won't disavow an intent to
kill the President while being interviewed on television,. His buddy
showed up with a rifle and a threatening sign at the New Hampshire
rally. There's a difference between a vague threat delivered by a
puppet-wielding sociology undergrad across the country and a threat
delivered by a militia gunman a block away. <BR><BR>Neither, you
might note, is likely to actually to kill the President. That's not,
however, what I'm worried about. First, I have a lot of strong and
contrary political beliefs. I'm uncomfortable expressing them with my
back to military-grade firearms. I think this is reasonable. Second,
an armed and licensed person a block away from the President is a
waste of resources, given that it's probably a good idea to keep a
Secret Service sniper on him at all times. Third, keeping a Secret
Service sniper on fifty gun-toting militia members is a logistical
nightmare, and there appears to be no good way to prevent fifty
gun-toting idiots from showing up. Fourth, the introduction of
firearms to a situation with a lot of shouting and pushing,
threatening signs, twitchy cops, and security cordons is an awful
idea. Someone will get hurt. It is unlikely to be Obama, but that
doesn't mean I don't care.<BR><BR>-- ACS<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 5:59 PM, g. crabtree
<SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></A><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></A><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A></A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV bgcolor="#ffffff">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It seems to me that you and campbell
are in a neck and neck competition to post the most addled
response to my pointing out yet another spot of
hypocrisy with regard to the Rammell quip. Fortunately for
you, past experience indicates that the man with a fallacy for all
seasons will always ultimately win out in competitions such as this.
Just for fun however, why don't you expound a moment upon why "AR-15
toting dude" gives you the vapors and provide an instance or two of
my attempts to "claim" him. Who knows, with enough breathless
hyperbole, disjointed prose, and outright disregard for truthfulness
you might just give the pedantic perfesser a run for his
money!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV><FONT color=#888888>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=im>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ophite@gmail.com href="mailto:ophite@gmail.com"
target=_blank>Andreas Schou</A> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=im>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" target=_blank>the
lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"
target=_blank>Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, August 31, 2009 11:10 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] 'Obama Tags' Called a Joke</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>Gary --<BR><BR>Incidentally, I'm more concerned
about things like the AR-15-toting dude showing up to the Obama
rally while refusing to disavow calling for Obama's assassination.
Rex Rammel is a national joke who can't keep his mouth shut. This
guy... less so. And, incidentally, Gary, since he's a member of
the Libertarian party and a militia crank, I don't think he's
"yours," except insofar as you try to keep claiming him.<BR><BR>--
ACS<BR><BR>For those of you that haven't seen the follow-up: <A
href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"
target=_blank></A><A
href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"></A><A
href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu"><A
href="http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu">http://www.abc15.com/content/news/southeastvalley/tempe/story/Tempe-pastor-reiterates-wish-for-President-Obamas/MX2Vzd4unEi9n8PschT50w.cspxu</A></A>
<BR></DIV></DIV>
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