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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My point was that we have all heard the " I want it
because I want it" argument over and over again and I understand it, such as it
is. I was hoping to see the discussion expanded to why making such a change
would be good for the part of the world that is not a subset of the 3% that is
homosexual. In the past I have offered up a few of the reasons that I believe
that society as a whole would not benefit from abandoning traditional marriage,
I was hoping to hear those views addressed. For me to go back and forth with
Miss Hendrickson concerning her personal desires is argument to no good
outcome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>As to my use of the term "pal," it seems to me that some
folks are looking hard for a reason to be offended and play the victim. This
being the case, I'm glad I could be of assistance, I guess. I would think
by now that most on this forum would realize that it is not my nature to offer
up false apologies when I feel zero remorse. I did not offer up the term in an
effort to offend and I have not "persisted" in using it once it's blatant
cruelty and mind boggling offensiveness had been pointed out. I seems to
me that this tends to be the standard way discussions of this type go. Rather
than respond to the meat of the matter, find a spot of minutia to rally around,
fire up the martyr machinery, and ignore the larger
issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kjajmix1@msn.com href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely emerinemix</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 13, 2009 7:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Why I Support
Gay Marriage</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>You decry the "personal" argument Mo offers for her wish to be
able to marry her partner, but then insist that in offering "personal"
arguments, she doesn't answer your question of why her being able to marry
(her) partner is a benefit to me and/or society?" Which seems like a
question based on . . . your personal feelings about the matter, as I presume
you wouldn't intend to represent all of society.<BR><BR>And it seems to me
that if you know, and likely knew, that "pal" was and would be offensive, you
would either (A) not use it, out of respect, or, (B) apologize for having used
it once she told you it was hurtful. Really, is your argument so
precious to you that you have to take refuge in persisting to use a term that
she finds offensive? If your argument requires the use of a word that is
flip and demeaning, Webster aside, perhaps you might want to refine it -- you
know, making it less personal -- or else re-examine why it is that benefit to
you "and society" ought to supercede benefit to her.<BR><BR><FONT
color=#8064a2><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt" size=3><FONT
face=Verdana>Keely<BR>www.keely-prevailingwinds.com<BR></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
From: jampot@roadrunner.com<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Date: Thu, 13 Aug
2009 19:14:42 -0700<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Why I Support Gay
Marriage<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Unfortunately, my question was not answered in even
the most oblique fashion. What I asked was "Why don't you explain to me
all the myriad ways in which you being able to marry your partner is a
benefit to me and/or society?" What you replied with was the standard song we
have all become so familiar with. To paraphrase: "I want it because I perceive
it as good for me." and, because I thinks it's "fair." We've heard this
all before and I am not going to respond at that level because to do so is to
make this into some sort of a personnel argument regarding your lifestyle
(which I have no interest in) rather than a discussion of the merits of
changing a policy that has worked, sometimes imperfectly I'll be the
first to admit, for centuries.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Next order of biz, I suppose, is me making some sort
massively insincere apology for my choice of noun to refer to your
"partner." Let's face it, we all know that I would not be sorry in the
least so I won't even pretend for the sake of civil discourse. I'm
glad that you choose to believe that I'm a "smart man." You would not need to
search very hard to find venomous and
vociferous disagreement. Either way, I do know what the words I
choose to use mean,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>from dictionary.com</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Pal 1. </FONT><FONT face=Verdana>a very
close, intimate friend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Partner 1. </FONT><FONT face=Verdana>a person
who shares or is associated with another in some action or
endeavor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>and now you do too. Take from this what you
will.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>respectfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kjajmix1@msn.com href="mailto:kjajmix1@msn.com">keely
emerinemix</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu
href="mailto:hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu">Mo Hendrickson</A> ; <A
title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, August 13, 2009 3:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] Why I Support Gay Marriage</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Mo, thanks for a very important contribution to the debate
surrounding same-sex marriage. I appreciate your not only taking the
time to answer Gary, but the reasonableness with which you answer his
questions. This, and many other reasons, are why I'm blessed by God to
call you and your partner -- "pal" IS utterly offensive -- my dear
friends.<BR><BR><FONT color=#8064a2><FONT style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
size=3><FONT face=Verdana>Keely<BR><A
href="http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com">www.keely-prevailingwinds.com</A><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=EC_stopSpelling>
From: <A
href="mailto:hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu">hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu</A><BR>To:
<A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A><BR>Date:
Thu, 13 Aug 2009 14:02:57 -0700<BR>CC: <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Subject:
[Vision2020] Why I Support Gay Marriage<BR><BR>
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This is my long overdue response to Gary's questions from the end of
July. As we all know life happens and sometimes things fall through
the cracks, that is what happened to my response. With Palouse Pride
this Saturday and the Washington State Referendum 71 likely to be on the
ballot in November, I figured it was time to give my point of view.
<BR><BR>First I want to thank Gary for asking his questions. I had
honestly not done a whole lot of research into the effects of restricting
marriage and found that I am now better equipped to handle questions when
they come my way. I am by no means an expert but I want to share what
I have found and speak from my own experience. <BR><BR>The first thing
I am going to address is the notion that "most states allow pretty much all
accomodation to homosexual couples as they do hetro except the title."
Oh if this were even close to the truth I would be a much happier
person. Lets take Idaho as an example. Same-sex couples in Idaho
are pretty much considered roommates under the law. There is no legal
protection granted to them by the state. A married couple in Idaho can
file joint taxes, when a child is born both people in the couple are legally
that child's parent even if sperm donation was used, they can make medical
and financial decisions for the other person without drawing up legal
paperwork...the list could go on and on. A same sex couple enjoys none
of these or any other rights of marriage in Idaho. <BR><BR>Yes we can
go to a lawyer and have wills and powers of attorney drawn up, but that does
not make things equal. Say my partner and I where traveling out of
state we are in an accident and one of us is unable to consent to medical
care. I pull out my power of attorney hoping that the hospital will
accept it and grant me the power to make the decisions. If they wanted they
could look right past me and call my partners family to make those
decisions. In my case we would probably be on the same page as to
care, but that is not always the case. If a straight married couple
had the same thing occur the hospital would not ask them to produce their
marriage license before allowing the other to make those decisions.
There are plenty of places across this country that still deny partners the
right to visit each other in the hospital, simply on the basis that they are
not a "family" member. Tell me how this is right? Tell me how
this makes our country stronger, denying the right to see a loved one?
To me this is wrong on so many levels. <BR><BR>I know I may not be
answering your questions directly but I am trying to cover a great deal of
information. You asked about the major tangible benefits for my
partner and I. First and the most present for my partner and I is
medical benefits. I am currently covered by her plan, she works for a
company that has generously paid for our benefits. She is back in
school and will be leaving her job in the next couple of years. She
will be without health insurance because I cannot carry her on my insurance
through the University. The insurance at UI may not be the best around
but it is better than nothing. Along with health care if one of us
were to get sick or injured and had to take time off, the other could not
take family medical leave to care for the other person. A married
couple is covered under the federal Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) which
protects a workers job with unpaid time off to care for a sick family
member. We are not married so we are not covered. <BR><BR>Second major
tangible benefit, parental rights of each parent. I am unable to carry
children, so when we start a family it will be my partner who carries the
child. When our children are born, the sperm donor will have more
rights to my child than I will. We will need to go through the process
of adoption so that i can be the legal parent of the child. So not
only do we need to go through the expense of pregnancy, we will have the
added expense of legalizing my rights with my child. If my partner
were to die before the process was over I could be denied custody of my
child. <BR><BR>I really could go on and I intended this to be more
empirical and less emotive, but alas it is something that is dear to my
heart and would greatly improve the lives of millions of Americans. If
you want empirical data I will gladly share the volumes of data that I
found. But for now I will hold onto it...this email is getting long
and my lunch break is almost over. <BR><BR>There is one final thing
that I would like to say. Unfortunately I did not save the email in
which you wrote this, Gary, and I don't have time to look it up in the
archives, but in subsequent emails you referred to my partner as my
"pal." I am not going to fly off the handle and call you all sorts of
nasty names, but I will say this. That one little word hurt me.
I don't think I am being overly sensitive to this either. We have been
together for over six and a half years, she is not my pal, she is my
partner. We share everything, good and bad, we have seen each other
through some really hard times and we have celebrated with each other in the
joyous times. You are a smart man, you know the impact your words have
on people. I wanted to let you know that this time they cut a little
too deep. I may not agree with most of what you write on the vision,
but I do respect you. I ask that you do the same for me.
<BR><BR>Ok, now it really is time to finish my
lunch.<BR><BR>-Mo<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=EC_EC_stopSpelling>
From: lockshop@pull.twcbc.com<BR>To: hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu<BR>CC:
vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Choices<BR>Date: Fri, 24
Jul 2009 15:26:29 -0700<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Since I've done that one before Mo, why not just for
fun try a different approach. Why don't you explain to me all the
myriad ways in which you being able to marry your partner is a benefit
to me and/or society? Explain how it will be good for children (mine or
yours, assuming you have any), how it will strenghten families, and how it
won't cause large problems with regard to an already tottering social
security system. Lay out how it won't set the stage for polygamous and
polyandrous unions with all the inherent problems that will bring. Perhaps,
if nothing else, explain to me what the major tangible benefits of it would
even be for you and your partner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>All the things that you claim you long for can be
achieved by other legal means. It is my understanding that most states allow
pretty much all accomadation to homosexual couples as they do hetro except
the title, why so adamant in your insistance for a change to the status
quo?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu
href="mailto:hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu">Mo Hendrickson</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 1:11 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] Choices</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>One question Gary. I am hoping you can clarify this
point for me...<BR><BR>How would my desire to marry my partner adversely
affect you? <BR><BR>Your marriage, I am making an assumption that you are
married, has no effect on me, so why would mine have any bearing on
you? Why do you advocate for denying me and my partner a legally
recognized marriage? <BR><BR>Not that I expect an answer but I
thought I would put it out there. I guess anybody who is opposed to
same gender marriage could answer this question. And so we don't
head down the ridiculous path of marrying goats, I am defining same gender
marriage as two consenting adults. <BR><BR>-Mo<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=EC_EC_EC_stopSpelling>
From: lockshop@pull.twcbc.com<BR>To: philosopher.joe@gmail.com<BR>Date:
Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:41:22 -0700<BR>CC: vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<BR><BR>
<STYLE>
</STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another inconsequential argument. No
valid marriages are being rendered "null and void" and I'm not suggesting
that any be made so. I think that my views are quite consistant. I'm in
favor of choice when the choice doesn't adversely affect others who have
no way of escaping my decision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What strikes me as strange is your notion
that your personally concocted idea of freedoms should be
celebrated and allowed to impact any and everyone with no regard for
adverse impact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com>the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> ; <A
title=starbliss@gmail.com><starbliss@gmail.com></A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com><vision2020@moscow.com></A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 11:43 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So you think that the state should not be forced to recognize
marriage? If they were to say that conservatives with inconsistent views
were not allowed to marry, and thus your marriage was null and void,
that would be fine with you? Yipes! As I said, this is a strange kind of
freedom!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>And I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out the
implications of your own words.<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 1:55 PM, "the lockshop"
<<A>lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is mis-stating my position really the
only way you can think of to try and make a valid point?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As I have said repeatedly, I believe that
if homosexuals can find someone who is willing to pronounce them man
and man, wife and wife, or man, wife, wife, or any permutation
thereof then swell, I wish them the best. What I am not in favor
of is in my or the state being forced to recognize it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With regard to the abortion issue
though I've really got to admit that you've got me caught on the horns
of a delimma. How could I not see the similarity between making a
choice that has a 1 in 15 chance of potentially damaging the
health of the person doing the
choosing and making a decision that has a 100% chance
of killing an innocent party?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In both of your examples the decision
extends to others who will not be given a choice to participate. Bar
patrons and employess do get to make an informed choice and as a
result your comments seem a trifle lame.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com>the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> ; <A
title=starbliss@gmail.com><</A><A>starbliss@gmail.com</A>> ;
<A
title=vision2020@moscow.com><</A><A>vision2020@moscow.com</A>>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 9:29 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You don't even think that ADULTS are able to make decisions
about whom to marry or whether pr not to have children, so stop
pretending to respect a person's right to make decisions for him or
herself! <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:11 PM, "the lockshop"
<<A></A><A>lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It would seem that you, Mr. Moffet, and our
city council have a mighty low opinion of the intelligence of the
patrons and employees of bars and taverns. I can't speak for your
students but, I find it very difficult to believe that by the time
a citizen reaches the age of 21 in the United States he
hasn't heard the anti-smoking mantra to the point of
nausea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>How lucky we are that there are people out
there who will take it upon themselves to prevent emancipated
Americans from making their own decisions with regard to the risks
they take in life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A
title=starbliss@gmail.com></A><A></A><A>starbliss@gmail.com</A>
; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com></A><A></A><A>vision2020@moscow.com</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 7:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I would like to add the idea of this
saying,<BR><BR>"Don't let the facts get in the way of a good
story."<BR><BR>Either way Ted, you brought up some very valid
points that tend to be forgotten when people discuss
tobacco/smoking regulation and legislation. What scares me
as a Health Teacher is when I hear my junior high and high
school aged students talking about how safe, they think anyway,
Hookah bars are. When asked if they would ever smoke
cigarettes, they claim that they won't. Yet what these
students don't realize is that they are actually smoking tobacco
at the high school hookah parties. What is even scarier is
a lot of the parents think that hookah is a safe alternative as
well. <BR><BR>The hookah bar closest to my house in Boise
is constantly packed with young people all of the time.
Often times, other substances are being laced into the tobacco
as well and these young people are unknowingly smoking illegal
drugs along with their fruit and tobacco mixture.<BR><BR>I
predict in the not so distant future, Boise and possibly the
State Legislature will enact legislation to regulate/control
these hookah establishments.<BR><BR>Here is a question to
ponder. By definition based on Idaho Code, what is a
hookah bar categorized as? A restaurant, a bar, a private
club? If it falls under the bar definition, then people
under 21 should not be allowed in. It seems as though
hookah bars would fall into an undefined gray area of the Idaho
Clean Indoor Air Act. However, Moscow seems to have
covered hookah bars in their recent ban of smoking, I could be
wrong though.<BR><BR>" 'Politics is the art of controlling your
environment.' That is one of the key things I learned in these
years, and I learned it the hard way. Anybody who thinks that
'it doesn't matter who's President' has never been Drafted and
sent off to fight and die in a vicious, stupid War on the other
side of the World -- or been beaten and gassed by Police for
trespassing on public property -- or been hounded by the IRS for
purely political reasons -- or locked up in the Cook County Jail
with a broken nose and no phone access and twelve perverts
wanting to stomp your ass in the shower. That is when it matters
who is President or Governor or Police Chief. That is when you
will wish you had voted." - Hunter S.
Thompson<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=EC_EC_EC_EC_stopSpelling>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:39:45 -0700<BR>From:
<A></A><A></A><A>starbliss@gmail.com</A><BR>To:
<A></A><A></A><A>vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>Subject:
[Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<BR><BR>
<DIV>The "Off List" response referenced, from someone I regard
as one of the most educated and honest Vision2020 participants,
that I received to my post below on tobacco regulation, is
in total what is stated in the subject heading of this
post. Wise words, no doubt, that I ignore at my own
risk... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Notice there is limited or no discussion of some of the
critical facts my post presented: that tobacco
(nicotine) is a physically addictive drug, with
underage tobacco addiction common, raising questions if whether
adult "choice" is in effect regarding employees or consumers in
tobacco related decisions; that tobacco is the leading
cause of premature death (nuclear waste or energy or even
nuclear weapons production is not even close as a cause of
premature death); that other drugs doing less harm to society
than tobacco are criminalized and prosecuted
aggressively, involving civil and human rights violations,
yet who among those opposing regulation of
tobacco, will as aggressively advocate for these drugs
to be managed by free choice and the marketplace, rather than a
government "Big Brother?" Some, perhaps... While there are
others who should know better playing some on this list as
fools, for the sake of debate, or political advantage, or
popular image or whatever... Or they are as deluded as those
they are debating with...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My response to the "Off List" comment discussed
here:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ummm... OK, I guess... However, being an idealist in belief
that expressing the truth is morally mandated (where did I get
that dangerous idea? I''ll end up in serious
trouble! Oh, I forgot, I already am...), I may not
comply. I recently read a variation of this same
expression in James Lovelock's "Revenge of Gaia:" "Don't confuse
me with the facts, my minds made up." Lovelock was
referring to this mentality regarding the rejection of nuclear
power by many in the environmental movement.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><SPAN class=EC_EC_EC_EC_EC_sg>
<DIV>Ted<BR> </DIV></SPAN><SPAN class=q
id=EC_EC_EC_EC_EC_q_122aa783745cbaea_2>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_EC_EC_EC_EC_gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Please do not continue to confuse people
with facts. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=starbliss@gmail.com>Ted Moffett</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com>Moscow Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:55 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] Tobacco: Targeting the Nation’s Leading Killer:
Centers for Disease Control</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>Tobacco (nicotine) is a physically addictive
drug. Once addicted, "choice" becomes a problematic
concept. And many people become addicted while
underage, encouraged to continue their addiction in bars,
where cigarettes are often shared between
customers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The fact tobacco is physically addictive is absent from
the comments of many opposing the smoking ordinance, as are
the facts regarding the magnitude of the
damage. Comparisons to other harmful
behaviors are drawn (fatty food, etc.), suggesting that a
slippery slope of regulation will lead to government control
over too many aspects of life, but many of these
behaviors do not involve a drug addiction. Of
course alcohol has dramatic negative impacts. But
workers in bars are not forced to drink the drinks the
customers order, as they breathe the smoke of the
customers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I find it incredible that the health of workers exposed
to an addictive drug when they breathe in the workplace is
approached so callously. They can work elsewhere, it's
announced with smug authority, as if in this economy workers
have the luxury of choosing whatever job suits their fancy,
rather than an urgency to take whatever work they can
find. If it was cocaine or heroin or methamphetamine
that workers were exposed to, the attitude might be
different. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Profits from exposing workers to addictive drugs in the
workplace should be protected based on free market, free
choice, adult responsibility? If this is the logic,
where are the protests against laws imposed on
those selling cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine, et.
al., to consenting adults, which can result in long
prison sentences? Let the free market decide!
Why stand in the way of profits and the free choice of
adults? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If those opposing the smoking ordinance were consistent
in their outrage against limits on the free market, their
ideology might have more intellectual credibility.
Instead, the libertarianism proposed is inconsistent and
conformist. Or perhaps those opposed to the smoking
ordinance will now protest that bars do not allow legal
cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine use? Think of the
profits to be made! And remember, tobacco prematurely
kills more people than those three drugs combined...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If attempts were made to criminalize tobacco like
cannabis is, resulting in prison sentences, home invasions,
for sale or use, I would oppose this vehemently. But
an ordinance regulating smoking in bars does not stop any
adult from legally using tobacco products in settings where
they do not expose workers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If worker freedom of choice was a valid argument to
justify the exposure of workers to tobacco smoke in bars,
than OSHA could be mostly eliminated. After all, if
workers exposed to hazards monitored or banned by OSHA don't
want to work with those risks, they can work elsewhere, as
long as signs posted in the workplace inform them of the
risks. A "Big Brother" government bureaucracy
gone. </DIV>
<DIV>--------------------------</DIV>
<DIV><A></A><A></A><A>http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV>
<H2>The Burden of Tobacco Use</H2>Tobacco use is the single
most preventable cause of disease, disability, and death in
the United States. Each year, an estimated 443,000 people
die prematurely from smoking or exposure to secondhand
smoke, and another 8.6 million have a serious illness caused
by smoking. For every person who dies from smoking, 20 more
people suffer from at least one serious tobacco-related
illness. Despite these risks, approximately 43.4 million
U.S. adults smoke cigarettes. Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and
pipes also have deadly consequences, including lung, larynx,
esophageal, and oral cancers.<BR>The harmful effects of
smoking do not end with the smoker. More than 126 million
nonsmoking Americans, including children and adults, are
regularly exposed to secondhand smoke. Even brief exposure
can be dangerous because nonsmokers inhale many of the same
carcinogens and toxins in cigarette smoke as smokers.
Secondhand smoke exposure causes serious disease and death,
including heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking adults
and sudden infant death syndrome, acute respiratory
infections, ear problems, and more frequent and severe
asthma attacks in children. Each year, primarily because of
exposure to secondhand smoke, an estimated 3,000 nonsmoking
Americans die of lung cancer, more than 46,000 (range:
22,700–69,600) die of heart disease, and about
150,000–300,000 children younger than 18 months have lower
respiratory tract infections.<BR>Coupled with this enormous
health toll is the significant economic burden of tobacco
use—more than $96 billion per year in medical expenditures
and another $97 billion per year resulting from lost
productivity.<BR>
<P align=center><A
name=122aa783745cbaea_122a2ac98d684f08_1><IMG height=457
alt="Chart showing about 443,000 U.S. deaths attributable each year to cigarette smoking. Text description below."
src="http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w3/ltr/i_safe.gif"
width=425 border=0></A></P>
<P align=center>[A <A><FONT color=#003366>text description
of this graph</FONT></A> is also available.]</P>
<H2>The Tobacco Use Epidemic Can Be Stopped</H2>A 2007
Institute of Medicine (IOM) report presented a blueprint for
action to “reduce smoking so substantially that it is no
longer a public health problem for our nation.” The
two-pronged strategy for achieving this goal includes not
only strengthening and fully implementing currently proven
tobacco control measures, but also changing the regulatory
landscape to permit policy innovations. Foremost among the
IOM recommendations is that each state should fund a
comprehensive tobacco control program at the level
recommended by CDC in <I>Best Practices for Comprehensive
Tobacco Control Programs–2007</I>.<BR>Evidence-based,
statewide tobacco control programs that are comprehensive,
sustained, and accountable have been shown to reduce smoking
rates, tobacco-related deaths, and diseases caused by
smoking. A comprehensive program is a coordinated effort to
establish smoke-free policies and social norms, to promote
and assist tobacco users to quit, and to prevent initiation
of tobacco use. This approach combines educational,
clinical, regulatory, economic, and social
strategies.<BR>Research has documented the effectiveness of
laws and policies to protect the public from secondhand
smoke exposure, promote cessation, and prevent initiation
when they are applied in a comprehensive way. For example,
states can increase the unit price of tobacco products;
implement smoking bans through policies, regulations, and
laws; provide insurance coverage of tobacco use treatment;
and limit minors’ access to tobacco products.<BR>If the
nation is to achieve the objectives outlined in <I>Healthy
People 2010</I>, comprehensive, evidence-based approaches
for preventing smoking initiation and increasing cessation
need to be fully implemented.<BR>
<H1>CDC's Response</H1>CDC is the lead federal agency for
tobacco control. CDC’s Office on Smoking and Health (OSH)
provides national leadership for a comprehensive,
broad-based approach to reducing tobacco use. A variety of
government agencies, professional and voluntary
organizations, and academic institutions have joined
together to advance this approach, which involves the
following activities:<BR>
<UL>
<LI>Preventing young people from starting to
smoke.<BR>
<LI>Eliminating exposure to secondhand smoke.<BR>
<LI>Promoting quitting among young people and
adults.<BR>
<LI>Identifying and eliminating tobacco-related health
disparities. </LI></UL>Essential elements of this approach
include state-based, community-based, and health
system-based interventions; cessation services; counter
marketing; policy development and implementation;
surveillance; and evaluation. These activities target groups
who are at highest risk for tobacco-related health
problems.<BR>-------------------------------------------<BR>Vision2020
Post: Ted
Moffett<BR></DIV></SPAN></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></SPAN><BR>
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