<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.6000.16850" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Surprisingly, considering your short attention
span, you have brought this back around to the original topic which was the
smoking ban and in that here are the similarities I see.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A private citizen owns a business. It is open to
all, be they patrons or employees. The only stipulation being you must be
willing to put up with the bar's environment. A small group of people want to
partake of the private citizens private property but they do not want
to endure the rules of use so, rather than take advantage of already existing
venues that already meet their criterion, or create a new venue of their own
that would fulfill their needs, they use the sledgehammer of
government to force the private property owner and all of his clients who are
perfectly happy with the current arraignment to accede to their
wishes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, an institution exists called marriage. It may
not be a perfect institution but it has served its purpose relatively well for
may years. It is open to all, the only stipulation is that its
an arraignment set up solely for a man and a woman. A small group of people
want to partake of this arraignment but they do not want to have to follow the
rules that are set up for it. So, rather than utilizing an existing
framework to obtain their goals (legal documents such as wills, living
wills, medical powers of atty, etc.) or set up a new institution that will
fulfill their desires (domestic partnership), they attempt to use the
sledgehammer of the state to force their desires onto the majority.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the first example, you claim that government and
the small, vocal group interested in changing the status quo were doing a
good thing "in the name of public health," even though the only people affected
were those who voluntarily entered the privately owned premises and that the
hazard did not extend beyond the walls to anyone who didn't choose to be
there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the second example, you claim that a small,
vocal group attempting to use the power of government to alter the status quo is
a good thing because.......??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=jampot@roadrunner.com
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the lockshop</A> ; <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>"><vision2020@moscow.com></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 24, 2009 9:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Choices</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You make it seem as if marriage is no big deal and not any different than
any old legal contract but if that is the case it is not clear why you got
married in the first place or why you would give a damn if two men married
each other. Can you explain that? If there is no difference why not just let
anyone marry whom ever they wish? Again, it is a strange view of freedom that
desires to keep folks from doing what they want even when, if we're to believe
your words below, you "don't care." Very strange indeed!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Again, compare your thoughts on this matter with your views on the new
anti-smoking law. Dan doesn't like smokey bars and as I noted there is lots of
evidence that second hand is physically harmful but you still called Dan
"selfish" (I think that was the word) for casting his vote. But somehow the
fact that you don't have a fondness for other guys and have unsupported
fantasies about the connection between gay marriage and "moral harms" that is
a different story. Even though marriage is no big deal it is not wrong or
selfish for you to do what you can to prevent gay weddings. (I'm assuming that
you voted for the constitutional ban on gay marriage but if I'm wrong let me
know.) </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Putting it all together, we're supposed to believe that when the local
government bans smoking in the name of public health that we're one step
closer to communism BUT the state is allowed to say who you can and can't
marry. Very strange view!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Say what you want but you are no fan of freedom -- unless by that you
mean the freedom to do what you see fit. And yes I will bring this up whenever
you or your radical conservative friends wave your flags and try to pretend
that you think freedom is important. <BR><BR>Sent from my
iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 9:29 PM, "g. crabtree" <<A
href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you had read my post a little more carefully
you might have noted that I did not ask anyone to explain why their actions
are not harmful to society. I have to justify nothing to anyone, much less
you and neither does Moe. I have been asked for, and given explanation
for my views on this and numerous other topics on this forum frequently over
the years, that I should ask someone else for the same is arrogance? When it
comes to inconsistency (to say nothing of belligerence) I can't hold a
candle to you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just for the sake of mindless repetition, I
have said repeatedly that I don't care if homosexuals run out and have some
sort of a little ceremony and call themselves whatever they like. They can
go to an attorney, in the same way that my wife and I did, and have drawn up
the same wills, durable powers of attorney, living wills, revocable living
trusts, etc. that will in effect give them all the same rights and
privileges that my wife and I enjoy and I'm fine with it. They in
effect already have everything they claim they want. And yet it's not
enough, my simple and apparently "arrogant" question is why? I don't wish
Moe and her pal any ill or unhappiness, I just want to know why they require
me via the power of the state to play along before their lives are
complete. I don't think that this is an unreasonable question to
ask.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 24, 2009 5:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020]
Choices</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I'll have more to say about this later since I'm about to drive home
BUT can YOU explain why any of your actions are not harmful to society? Do
you think you have to justify them to me before you're allowed to do
anything? And is there something besides your own arragance that makes you
think folks owe you an explanation? </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It seems strange to me that you could rip Dan a new one for
infringing on the "rights" for smokers, even though second hand smoke has
been proven to be harmful, yet you seem to believe that folks may only
marry if they prove to you that it is not harmful! </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There is no better argument for the claim that personal religious
beliefs have no place when it comes to matters of the law than you have
illustrated with this recent pair of inconsistent reasonings!<BR><BR>Sent
from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 6:26 PM, "the lockshop" <<A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Since I've done that one before Mo, why not just
for fun try a different approach. Why don't you explain to me all the
myriad ways in which you being able to marry your partner is a
benefit to me and/or society? Explain how it will be good for children
(mine or yours, assuming you have any), how it will strenghten families,
and how it won't cause large problems with regard to an already
tottering social security system. Lay out how it won't set the stage for
polygamous and polyandrous unions with all the inherent problems that
will bring. Perhaps, if nothing else, explain to me what the major
tangible benefits of it would even be for you and your
partner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>All the things that you claim you long for can be
achieved by other legal means. It is my understanding that most states
allow pretty much all accomadation to homosexual couples as they do
hetro except the title, why so adamant in your insistance for a change
to the status quo?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu
href="mailto:hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu">Mo Hendrickson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></A><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A></A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=vision2020@moscow.com href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 24, 2009 1:11
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020]
Choices</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>One question Gary. I am hoping you can clarify
this point for me...<BR><BR>How would my desire to marry my partner
adversely affect you? <BR><BR>Your marriage, I am making an assumption
that you are married, has no effect on me, so why would mine have any
bearing on you? Why do you advocate for denying me and my
partner a legally recognized marriage? <BR><BR>Not that I expect
an answer but I thought I would put it out there. I guess
anybody who is opposed to same gender marriage could answer this
question. And so we don't head down the ridiculous path of
marrying goats, I am defining same gender marriage as two consenting
adults. <BR><BR>-Mo<BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=stopSpelling>
From: <A href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></A><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A></A><BR>To:
<A href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"></A><A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><A
href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</A></A><BR>Date:
Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:41:22 -0700<BR>CC: <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A><BR>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<BR><BR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another inconsequential argument. No
valid marriages are being rendered "null and void" and I'm not
suggesting that any be made so. I think that my views are quite
consistant. I'm in favor of choice when the choice doesn't adversely
affect others who have no way of escaping my decision.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What strikes me as strange is your notion
that your personally concocted idea of freedoms should
be celebrated and allowed to impact any and everyone with no regard
for adverse impact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com>the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> ; <A
title=starbliss@gmail.com><</A><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</A></A>> ;
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com><</A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A>>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 11:43 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So you think that the state should not be forced to recognize
marriage? If they were to say that conservatives with inconsistent
views were not allowed to marry, and thus your marriage was null and
void, that would be fine with you? Yipes! As I said, this is a
strange kind of freedom!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>And I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out
the implications of your own words.<BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 1:55 PM, "the lockshop" <<A></A><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is mis-stating my position really the
only way you can think of to try and make a valid
point?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As I have said repeatedly, I believe
that if homosexuals can find someone who is willing to pronounce
them man and man, wife and wife, or man, wife, wife, or any
permutation thereof then swell, I wish them the best. What I
am not in favor of is in my or the state being forced to recognize
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With regard to the abortion
issue though I've really got to admit that you've got me caught on
the horns of a delimma. How could I not see the similarity
between making a choice that has a 1 in 15 chance of potentially
damaging the health of the person doing the
choosing and making a decision that has a 100%
chance of killing an innocent party?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In both of your examples the decision
extends to others who will not be given a choice to participate.
Bar patrons and employess do get to make an informed choice and as
a result your comments seem a trifle lame.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=philosopher.joe@gmail.com>Joe Campbell</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=lockshop@pull.twcbc.com>the lockshop</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Cc:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> ; <A
title=starbliss@gmail.com><</A><A></A><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</A></A>>
; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com><</A><A></A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A>>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 9:29 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You don't even think that ADULTS are able to make decisions
about whom to marry or whether pr not to have children, so stop
pretending to respect a person's right to make decisions for him
or herself! <BR><BR>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV><BR>On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:11 PM, "the lockshop"
<<A></A><A></A><A href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><A
href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</A></A>>
wrote:<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It would seem that you, Mr. Moffet, and
our city council have a mighty low opinion of the intelligence
of the patrons and employees of bars and taverns. I can't
speak for your students but, I find it very difficult to
believe that by the time a citizen reaches the age of 21
in the United States he hasn't heard the
anti-smoking mantra to the point of nausea.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>How lucky we are that there are people
out there who will take it upon themselves to prevent
emancipated Americans from making their own decisions with
regard to the risks they take in life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>g</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tim.rigsby@hotmail.com>TIM RIGSBY</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=starbliss@gmail.com></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</A></A>
; <A title=vision2020@moscow.com></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, July 24, 2009 7:47 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people
with facts."</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I would like to add the idea of this
saying,<BR><BR>"Don't let the facts get in the way of a good
story."<BR><BR>Either way Ted, you brought up some very
valid points that tend to be forgotten when people discuss
tobacco/smoking regulation and legislation. What
scares me as a Health Teacher is when I hear my junior high
and high school aged students talking about how safe, they
think anyway, Hookah bars are. When asked if they
would ever smoke cigarettes, they claim that they
won't. Yet what these students don't realize is that
they are actually smoking tobacco at the high school hookah
parties. What is even scarier is a lot of the parents
think that hookah is a safe alternative as well.
<BR><BR>The hookah bar closest to my house in Boise is
constantly packed with young people all of the time.
Often times, other substances are being laced into the
tobacco as well and these young people are unknowingly
smoking illegal drugs along with their fruit and tobacco
mixture.<BR><BR>I predict in the not so distant future,
Boise and possibly the State Legislature will enact
legislation to regulate/control these hookah
establishments.<BR><BR>Here is a question to ponder.
By definition based on Idaho Code, what is a hookah bar
categorized as? A restaurant, a bar, a private
club? If it falls under the bar definition, then
people under 21 should not be allowed in. It seems as
though hookah bars would fall into an undefined gray area of
the Idaho Clean Indoor Air Act. However, Moscow seems
to have covered hookah bars in their recent ban of smoking,
I could be wrong though.<BR><BR>" 'Politics is the art of
controlling your environment.' That is one of the key things
I learned in these years, and I learned it the hard way.
Anybody who thinks that 'it doesn't matter who's President'
has never been Drafted and sent off to fight and die in a
vicious, stupid War on the other side of the World -- or
been beaten and gassed by Police for trespassing on public
property -- or been hounded by the IRS for purely political
reasons -- or locked up in the Cook County Jail with a
broken nose and no phone access and twelve perverts wanting
to stomp your ass in the shower. That is when it matters who
is President or Governor or Police Chief. That is when you
will wish you had voted." - Hunter S.
Thompson<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR id=EC_stopSpelling>
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:39:45 -0700<BR>From:
<A></A><A></A><A></A><A href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><A
href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</A></A><BR>To:
<A></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A></A><BR>Subject:
[Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<BR><BR>
<DIV>The "Off List" response referenced, from someone I
regard as one of the most educated and honest Vision2020
participants, that I received to my post below on
tobacco regulation, is in total what is stated in the
subject heading of this post. Wise words, no doubt,
that I ignore at my own risk... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Notice there is limited or no discussion of some of the
critical facts my post presented: that tobacco
(nicotine) is a physically addictive drug,
with underage tobacco addiction common, raising questions if
whether adult "choice" is in effect regarding employees or
consumers in tobacco related decisions; that tobacco is
the leading cause of premature death (nuclear waste or
energy or even nuclear weapons production is not even close
as a cause of premature death); that other drugs doing less
harm to society than tobacco are criminalized and prosecuted
aggressively, involving civil and human rights
violations, yet who among those opposing regulation of
tobacco, will as aggressively advocate for
these drugs to be managed by free choice and the
marketplace, rather than a government "Big Brother?"
Some, perhaps... While there are others who should know
better playing some on this list as fools, for the sake
of debate, or political advantage, or popular image or
whatever... Or they are as deluded as those they are
debating with...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My response to the "Off List" comment discussed
here:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ummm... OK, I guess... However, being an idealist in
belief that expressing the truth is morally mandated (where
did I get that dangerous idea? I''ll end up in serious
trouble! Oh, I forgot, I already am...), I may not
comply. I recently read a variation of this same
expression in James Lovelock's "Revenge of Gaia:" "Don't
confuse me with the facts, my minds made up." Lovelock
was referring to this mentality regarding the rejection of
nuclear power by many in the environmental movement.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><SPAN class=EC_EC_sg>
<DIV>Ted<BR> </DIV></SPAN><SPAN class=q
id=EC_EC_q_122aa783745cbaea_2>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_EC_gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Please do not continue to confuse people
with facts. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228); FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none; -moz-background-clip: border; -moz-background-origin: padding; -moz-background-inline-policy: continuous"><B>From:</B>
<A title=starbliss@gmail.com>Ted Moffett</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>To:</B>
<A title=vision2020@moscow.com>Moscow Vision 2020</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Sent:</B>
Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:55 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -x-system-font: none"><B>Subject:</B>
[Vision2020] Tobacco: Targeting the Nation’s Leading
Killer: Centers for Disease Control</DIV>
<DIV><BR> </DIV>
<DIV>Tobacco (nicotine) is a physically addictive
drug. Once addicted, "choice" becomes a
problematic concept. And many people become
addicted while underage, encouraged to continue their
addiction in bars, where cigarettes are
often shared between customers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The fact tobacco is physically addictive is absent
from the comments of many opposing the smoking
ordinance, as are the facts regarding the magnitude of
the damage. Comparisons to other harmful
behaviors are drawn (fatty food, etc.), suggesting that
a slippery slope of regulation will lead to government
control over too many aspects of life, but many of these
behaviors do not involve a drug addiction. Of
course alcohol has dramatic negative impacts. But
workers in bars are not forced to drink the drinks the
customers order, as they breathe the smoke of
the customers. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I find it incredible that the health of workers
exposed to an addictive drug when they breathe in the
workplace is approached so callously. They can
work elsewhere, it's announced with smug authority, as
if in this economy workers have the luxury of choosing
whatever job suits their fancy, rather than an urgency
to take whatever work they can find. If it was
cocaine or heroin or methamphetamine that workers were
exposed to, the attitude might be different.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Profits from exposing workers to addictive drugs in
the workplace should be protected based on free market,
free choice, adult responsibility? If this is the
logic, where are the protests
against laws imposed on those selling
cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine, et. al., to
consenting adults, which can result in long prison
sentences? Let the free market decide! Why
stand in the way of profits and the free choice of
adults? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If those opposing the smoking ordinance were
consistent in their outrage against limits on the free
market, their ideology might have more intellectual
credibility. Instead, the libertarianism proposed
is inconsistent and conformist. Or perhaps those
opposed to the smoking ordinance will now protest that
bars do not allow legal cocaine, heroin or
methamphetamine use? Think of the profits to be
made! And remember, tobacco prematurely kills more
people than those three drugs combined...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If attempts were made to criminalize tobacco like
cannabis is, resulting in prison sentences, home
invasions, for sale or use, I would oppose this
vehemently. But an ordinance regulating smoking in
bars does not stop any adult from legally using tobacco
products in settings where they do not expose
workers.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If worker freedom of choice was a valid argument to
justify the exposure of workers to tobacco smoke in
bars, than OSHA could be mostly eliminated. After
all, if workers exposed to hazards monitored or banned
by OSHA don't want to work with those risks, they can
work elsewhere, as long as signs posted in the workplace
inform them of the risks. A "Big Brother"
government bureaucracy gone. </DIV>
<DIV>--------------------------</DIV>
<DIV><A></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm"><A
href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm">http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm</A></A></DIV>
<DIV>
<H2>The Burden of Tobacco Use</H2>Tobacco use is the
single most preventable cause of disease, disability,
and death in the United States. Each year, an estimated
443,000 people die prematurely from smoking or exposure
to secondhand smoke, and another 8.6 million have a
serious illness caused by smoking. For every person who
dies from smoking, 20 more people suffer from at least
one serious tobacco-related illness. Despite these
risks, approximately 43.4 million U.S. adults smoke
cigarettes. Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes also
have deadly consequences, including lung, larynx,
esophageal, and oral cancers.<BR>The harmful effects of
smoking do not end with the smoker. More than 126
million nonsmoking Americans, including children and
adults, are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke. Even
brief exposure can be dangerous because nonsmokers
inhale many of the same carcinogens and toxins in
cigarette smoke as smokers. Secondhand smoke exposure
causes serious disease and death, including heart
disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking adults and sudden
infant death syndrome, acute respiratory infections, ear
problems, and more frequent and severe asthma attacks in
children. Each year, primarily because of exposure to
secondhand smoke, an estimated 3,000 nonsmoking
Americans die of lung cancer, more than 46,000 (range:
22,700–69,600) die of heart disease, and about
150,000–300,000 children younger than 18 months have
lower respiratory tract infections.<BR>Coupled with this
enormous health toll is the significant economic burden
of tobacco use—more than $96 billion per year in medical
expenditures and another $97 billion per year resulting
from lost productivity.<BR>
<P align=center><A
name=122aa783745cbaea_122a2ac98d684f08_1><IMG height=457
alt="Chart showing about 443,000 U.S. deaths attributable each year to cigarette smoking. Text description below."
src="http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w3/ltr/i_safe.gif"
width=425 border=0></A></P>
<P align=center>[A <A><FONT color=#003366>text
description of this graph</FONT></A> is also
available.]</P>
<H2>The Tobacco Use Epidemic Can Be Stopped</H2>A 2007
Institute of Medicine (IOM) report presented a blueprint
for action to “reduce smoking so substantially that it
is no longer a public health problem for our nation.”
The two-pronged strategy for achieving this goal
includes not only strengthening and fully implementing
currently proven tobacco control measures, but also
changing the regulatory landscape to permit policy
innovations. Foremost among the IOM recommendations is
that each state should fund a comprehensive tobacco
control program at the level recommended by CDC in
<I>Best Practices for Comprehensive Tobacco Control
Programs–2007</I>.<BR>Evidence-based, statewide tobacco
control programs that are comprehensive, sustained, and
accountable have been shown to reduce smoking rates,
tobacco-related deaths, and diseases caused by smoking.
A comprehensive program is a coordinated effort to
establish smoke-free policies and social norms, to
promote and assist tobacco users to quit, and to prevent
initiation of tobacco use. This approach combines
educational, clinical, regulatory, economic, and social
strategies.<BR>Research has documented the effectiveness
of laws and policies to protect the public from
secondhand smoke exposure, promote cessation, and
prevent initiation when they are applied in a
comprehensive way. For example, states can increase the
unit price of tobacco products; implement smoking bans
through policies, regulations, and laws; provide
insurance coverage of tobacco use treatment; and limit
minors’ access to tobacco products.<BR>If the nation is
to achieve the objectives outlined in <I>Healthy People
2010</I>, comprehensive, evidence-based approaches for
preventing smoking initiation and increasing cessation
need to be fully implemented.<BR>
<H1>CDC's Response</H1>CDC is the lead federal agency
for tobacco control. CDC’s Office on Smoking and Health
(OSH) provides national leadership for a comprehensive,
broad-based approach to reducing tobacco use. A variety
of government agencies, professional and voluntary
organizations, and academic institutions have joined
together to advance this approach, which involves the
following activities:<BR>
<UL>
<LI>Preventing young people from starting to
smoke.<BR>
<LI>Eliminating exposure to secondhand
smoke.<BR>
<LI>Promoting quitting among young people and
adults.<BR>
<LI>Identifying and eliminating tobacco-related health
disparities. </LI></UL>Essential elements of this
approach include state-based, community-based, and
health system-based interventions; cessation services;
counter marketing; policy development and
implementation; surveillance; and evaluation. These
activities target groups who are at highest risk for
tobacco-related health
problems.<BR>-------------------------------------------<BR>Vision2020
Post: Ted
Moffett<BR></DIV></SPAN></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></SPAN><BR>
<HR>
Windows Live™ Hotmail®: Celebrate the moment with your
favorite sports pics. <A>Check it out.</A> <BR>
<HR>
<BR>=======================================================<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet,
<BR> serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.
<BR>
<A></A><A></A><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A></A>
<BR>
<A></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></A><BR>=======================================================
<BR>
<HR>
<BR><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked
by AVG - <A></A><A></A><A href="http://www.avg.com"><A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></A> <BR>Version:
8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.26/2257 - Release Date:
07/23/09 18:00:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN><BR><SPAN>List
services made available by First Step Internet,
</SPAN><BR><SPAN>serving the communities of the Palouse since
1994.
</SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A></A><A></A><A
href="http://www.fsr.net"><A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A></A>
</SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A></A><A></A><A></A><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<HR>
<BR><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by
AVG - <A></A><A href="http://www.avg.com"><A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></A> <BR>Version:
8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.27/2258 - Release Date:
07/24/09 05:58:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<HR>
<BR><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG -
<A href="http://www.avg.com"><A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></A> <BR>Version: 8.5.392 /
Virus Database: 270.13.27/2258 - Release Date: 07/24/09
05:58:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P><BR>No virus found in this incoming message.<BR>Checked by AVG
- <A href="http://www.avg.com"><A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A></A> <BR>Version: 8.5.392 /
Virus Database: 270.13.27/2258 - Release Date: 07/24/09
05:58:00<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN><BR><SPAN>List
services made available by First Step Internet, </SPAN><BR><SPAN>serving
the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
</SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A
href="http://www.fsr.net"><A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A></A>
</SPAN><BR><SPAN> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"></A><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></A></SPAN><BR><SPAN>=======================================================</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P>=======================================================<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
<A
href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</A>
<BR> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A></A><BR>=======================================================</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>