<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Crabtree,</div><div><br></div><div>I had nothing to do with the smoking ban, which would have easily passed given the support of the five men you voted into office over the last two elections alone. I worked my ass off to try to prevent your guys from getting elected ... but it's still my fault! Nonetheless you'll find a way to forget the facts again come November! All I can say is, You got what you voted for!</div><div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Jul 25, 2009, at 7:53 PM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><span></span></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<div><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f3eded" color="#000000" size="2">Actually, the
person you should be asking is Wayne. Near as I can make it the only legal
public place a person might be able to smoke would be the middle of a parking
lot and I'm sure that will only be a temporary condition. Campbell and The
council will want to protect parked cars from second hand smoke as soon as
they're made aware of the problem.</font></div>
<div><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f3eded" color="#000000" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #f3eded" color="#000000" size="2">g</font></div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="cjsnightclub@cableone.net" href="mailto:cjsnightclub@cableone.net">Shelley Roderick</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="bear@moscow.com" href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">Wayne Price</a> ; <a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe
Campbell</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b> <a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:49
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vision2020] Choices</div>
<div><br></div>
<table id="INCREDIMAINTABLE" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%" border="0"><tbody>
<tr>
<td id="INCREDITEXTREGION" dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; DIRECTION: ltr" valign="top" width="100%">
<div>Gary says, "If I'm in an area where I can legally
smoke............................."</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Gary - where might that be in a public place?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Phil</div>
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div id="IncrediOriginalMessage" dir="ltr"><i>-------Original
Message-------</i></div>
<div> </div>
<div id="receivestrings">
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i><b>From:</b></i> <a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i><b>Date:</b></i> 7/25/2009
2:30:31 PM</div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i><b>To:</b></i> <a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">Wayne Price</a></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i><b>Cc:</b></i> <a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><i><b>Subject:</b></i> Re:
[Vision2020] Choices</div></div>
<div> </div>
<div>Subjecting children to secondhand smoke! That ought to teach
them!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And it is hard to see how I changed the topic since the first post
in this thread is from Gary and on abortion. But don't let the facts get
in the way! That's what Fox is for! </div>
<div><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Jul 25, 2009, at 4:29 PM, Wayne Price <<a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:bear@moscow.com">bear@moscow.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div type="cite">
<div>Gary,
<div><br></div>
<div>THANKS for bringing this back to the original problem, the smoking
ban!</div>
<div>I agree 100% and think you summed up the problem of the smoking
topic right on the point!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I used to be very aware of non-smokers when I lit a cigarette
and I would ask if it bothered them, and if it did, I would
observe usual social conventions and either not light up,</div>
<div>or move so that they could enjoy what ever they were doing without
my smoke bothering them. NOT any more after the 3rd of August ! Now, If
I'm in an area where I can legally smoke,</div>
<div> I'm lighting up, and if the non-smokers don't like it, they
can head to a bar or private club where they don't have to put up with
second hand smoke!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And in all seriousness, take a look at where twenty feet from the
door of West of Paris is, in relationship to twenty feet from the door
of the Garden. Puts me right in the middle of the kiddy equipment,</div>
<div>Oh well, THATS what the non-smokers wanted, THATS what they
get!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Wayne</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 25, 2009, at 1:12 PM, g. crabtree wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; WIDOWS: 2; ORPHANS: 2; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Surprisingly, considering your short
attention span, you have brought this back around to the original topic
which was the smoking ban and in that here are the similarities I
see.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">A private citizen owns a business. It is
open to all, be they patrons or employees. The only stipulation
being you must be willing to put up with the bar's environment. A small
group of people want to partake of the private
citizens private property but they do not want to endure the rules
of use so, rather than take advantage of already existing venues that
already meet their criterion, or create a new venue of their own
that would fulfill their needs, they use the sledgehammer of
government to force the private property owner and all of his clients
who are perfectly happy with the current arraignment to accede to their
wishes.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Now, an institution exists called marriage.
It may not be a perfect institution but it has served its purpose
relatively well for may years. It is open to all, the only
stipulation is that its an arraignment set up solely for a man and
a woman. A small group of people want to partake of this arraignment but
they do not want to have to follow the rules that are set up for it. So,
rather than utilizing an existing framework to obtain their
goals (legal documents such as wills, living wills, medical powers of
atty, etc.) or set up a new institution that will fulfill their desires
(domestic partnership), they attempt to use the sledgehammer of the
state to force their desires onto the majority.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In the first example, you claim that
government and the small, vocal group interested in changing the
status quo were doing a good thing "in the name of public health," even
though the only people affected were those who voluntarily entered the
privately owned premises and that the hazard did not extend beyond the
walls to anyone who didn't choose to be there.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In the second example, you claim that a
small, vocal group attempting to use the power of government to alter
the status quo is a good thing because.......??</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div dir="ltr" style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="jampot@roadrunner.com" href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">g. crabtree</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the
lockshop</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>"><</a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 9:24
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Vision2020] Choices</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>You make it seem as if marriage is no big deal and not any
different than any old legal contract but if that is the case it is not
clear why you got married in the first place or why you would give a
damn if two men married each other. Can you explain that? If there is no
difference why not just let anyone marry whom ever they wish? Again, it
is a strange view of freedom that desires to keep folks from doing what
they want even when, if we're to believe your words below, you "don't
care." Very strange indeed!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Again, compare your thoughts on this matter with your views on the
new anti-smoking law. Dan doesn't like smokey bars and as I noted there
is lots of evidence that second hand is physically harmful but you still
called Dan "selfish" (I think that was the word) for casting his vote.
But somehow the fact that you don't have a fondness for other guys and
have unsupported fantasies about the connection between gay marriage and
"moral harms" that is a different story. Even though marriage is no big
deal it is not wrong or selfish for you to do what you can to prevent
gay weddings. (I'm assuming that you voted for the constitutional ban on
gay marriage but if I'm wrong let me know.) </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Putting it all together, we're supposed to believe that when the
local government bans smoking in the name of public health that we're
one step closer to communism BUT the state is allowed to say who you can
and can't marry. Very strange view!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Say what you want but you are no fan of freedom -- unless by that
you mean the freedom to do what you see fit. And yes I will bring this
up whenever you or your radical conservative friends wave your flags and
try to pretend that you think freedom is important.
<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Jul 24, 2009, at 9:29 PM, "g. crabtree" <<a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"></a><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com"><a href="mailto:jampot@roadrunner.com">jampot@roadrunner.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">If you had read my post a little more
carefully you might have noted that I did not ask anyone to explain why
their actions are not harmful to society. I have to justify nothing to
anyone, much less you and neither does Moe. I have been asked for,
and given explanation for my views on this and numerous other topics on
this forum frequently over the years, that I should ask someone else for
the same is arrogance? When it comes to inconsistency (to say
nothing of belligerence) I can't hold a candle to you.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Just for the sake of mindless repetition, I
have said repeatedly that I don't care if homosexuals run out and have
some sort of a little ceremony and call themselves whatever they like.
They can go to an attorney, in the same way that my wife and I did, and
have drawn up the same wills, durable powers of attorney, living wills,
revocable living trusts, etc. that will in effect give them all the same
rights and privileges that my wife and I enjoy and I'm fine with
it. They in effect already have everything they claim they want.
And yet it's not enough, my simple and apparently "arrogant" question is
why? I don't wish Moe and her pal any ill or unhappiness, I just want to
know why they require me via the power of the state to play along
before their lives are complete. I don't think that this is an
unreasonable question to ask.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com" href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the
lockshop</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 5:02
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Vision2020] Choices</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I'll have more to say about this later since I'm about to drive
home BUT can YOU explain why any of your actions are not harmful to
society? Do you think you have to justify them to me before you're
allowed to do anything? And is there something besides your own
arragance that makes you think folks owe you an explanation? </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>It seems strange to me that you could rip Dan a new one for
infringing on the "rights" for smokers, even though second hand smoke
has been proven to be harmful, yet you seem to believe that folks may
only marry if they prove to you that it is not harmful! </div>
<div><br></div>
<div>There is no better argument for the claim that personal religious
beliefs have no place when it comes to matters of the law than you have
illustrated with this recent pair of inconsistent
reasonings!<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Jul 24, 2009, at 6:26 PM, "the lockshop" <<a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div><span></span></div>
<div type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">Since I've done that one before Mo, why not just
for fun try a different approach. Why don't you explain to me all the
myriad ways in which you being able to marry your partner is a
benefit to me and/or society? Explain how it will be good for children
(mine or yours, assuming you have any), how it will strenghten families,
and how it won't cause large problems with regard to an already
tottering social security system. Lay out how it won't set the stage for
polygamous and polyandrous unions with all the inherent problems that
will bring. Perhaps, if nothing else, explain to me what the major
tangible benefits of it would even be for you and your
partner.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">All the things that you claim you long for can be
achieved by other legal means. It is my understanding that most states
allow pretty much all accomadation to homosexual couples as they do
hetro except the title, why so adamant in your insistance for a change
to the status quo?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">g</font></div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu" href="mailto:hend5953@vandals.uidaho.edu">Mo Hendrickson</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com" href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</a></a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 1:11
PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Vision2020] Choices</div>
<div><br></div>One question Gary. I am hoping you can clarify this
point for me...<br><br>How would my desire to marry my partner adversely
affect you?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Your
marriage, I am making an assumption that you are married, has no effect
on me, so why would mine have any bearing on you? Why do you
advocate for denying me and my partner a legally recognized
marriage? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Not that I expect an
answer but I thought I would put it out there. I guess anybody who
is opposed to same gender marriage could answer this question. And
so we don't head down the ridiculous path of marrying goats, I am
defining same gender marriage as two consenting adults. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>-Mo<br><br><br>
<hr id="stopSpelling">
From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</a></a><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:philosopher.joe@gmail.com">philosopher.joe@gmail.com</a></a><br>Date:
Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:41:22 -0700<br>CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<br><br>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Another inconsequential argument. No
valid marriages are being rendered "null and void" and I'm not
suggesting that any be made so. I think that my views are quite
consistant. I'm in favor of choice when the choice doesn't adversely
affect others who have no way of escaping my decision.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">What strikes me as strange is your notion
that your personally concocted idea of freedoms should be
celebrated and allowed to impact any and everyone with no regard for
adverse impact.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the lockshop</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="tim.rigsby@hotmail.com">TIM RIGSBY</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="starbliss@gmail.com"><</a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a></a>> ;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com"><</a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 11:43
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not
continue to confuse people with facts."</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>So you think that the state should not be forced to recognize
marriage? If they were to say that conservatives with inconsistent views
were not allowed to marry, and thus your marriage was null and void,
that would be fine with you? Yipes! As I said, this is a strange kind of
freedom!</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>And I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just pointing out the
implications of your own words.<br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Jul 24, 2009, at 1:55 PM, "the lockshop" <<a></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Is mis-stating my position really the only
way you can think of to try and make a valid point?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">As I have said repeatedly, I believe that
if homosexuals can find someone who is willing to pronounce them man and
man, wife and wife, or man, wife, wife, or any permutation
thereof then swell, I wish them the best. What I am not in favor of
is in my or the state being forced to recognize it.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">With regard to the abortion issue
though I've really got to admit that you've got me caught on the horns
of a delimma. How could I not see the similarity between making a
choice that has a 1 in 15 chance of potentially damaging the
health of the person doing the choosing and making
a decision that has a 100% chance of killing an innocent
party?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In both of your examples the decision
extends to others who will not be given a choice to participate. Bar
patrons and employess do get to make an informed choice and as a result
your comments seem a trifle lame.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">g</font></div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="philosopher.joe@gmail.com">Joe Campbell</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">the lockshop</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="tim.rigsby@hotmail.com">TIM RIGSBY</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="starbliss@gmail.com"><</a><a></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a></a>> ;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com"><</a><a></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a>></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 9:29
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not
continue to confuse people with facts."</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>You don't even think that ADULTS are able to make decisions about
whom to marry or whether pr not to have children, so stop pretending to
respect a person's right to make decisions for him or
herself! <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Jul 24, 2009, at 12:11 PM, "the lockshop"
<<a></a><a></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"></a><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com"><a href="mailto:lockshop@pull.twcbc.com">lockshop@pull.twcbc.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br><br></div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><font face="Arial">It would seem that you, Mr. Moffet, and our city
council have a mighty low opinion of the intelligence of the patrons and
employees of bars and taverns. I can't speak for your students but, I
find it very difficult to believe that by the time a citizen reaches the
age of 21 in the United States he hasn't heard the
anti-smoking mantra to the point of nausea.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">How lucky we are that there are people out there
who will take it upon themselves to prevent emancipated Americans from
making their own decisions with regard to the risks they take in
life.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial">g</font></div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="tim.rigsby@hotmail.com">TIM RIGSBY</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a></a><a></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a></a><a></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 24, 2009 7:47
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Vision2020] "Please do not
continue to confuse people with facts."</div>
<div><br></div>I would like to add the idea of this
saying,<br><br>"Don't let the facts get in the way of a good
story."<br><br>Either way Ted, you brought up some very valid points
that tend to be forgotten when people discuss tobacco/smoking regulation
and legislation. What scares me as a Health Teacher is when I hear
my junior high and high school aged students talking about how safe,
they think anyway, Hookah bars are. When asked if they would ever
smoke cigarettes, they claim that they won't. Yet what these
students don't realize is that they are actually smoking tobacco at the
high school hookah parties. What is even scarier is a lot of the
parents think that hookah is a safe alternative as well. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>The hookah bar closest
to my house in Boise is constantly packed with young people all of the
time. Often times, other substances are being laced into the
tobacco as well and these young people are unknowingly smoking illegal
drugs along with their fruit and tobacco mixture.<br><br>I predict in
the not so distant future, Boise and possibly the State Legislature will
enact legislation to regulate/control these hookah
establishments.<br><br>Here is a question to ponder. By definition
based on Idaho Code, what is a hookah bar categorized as? A
restaurant, a bar, a private club? If it falls under the bar
definition, then people under 21 should not be allowed in. It
seems as though hookah bars would fall into an undefined gray area of
the Idaho Clean Indoor Air Act. However, Moscow seems to have
covered hookah bars in their recent ban of smoking, I could be wrong
though.<br><br>" 'Politics is the art of controlling your environment.'
That is one of the key things I learned in these years, and I learned it
the hard way. Anybody who thinks that 'it doesn't matter who's
President' has never been Drafted and sent off to fight and die in a
vicious, stupid War on the other side of the World -- or been beaten and
gassed by Police for trespassing on public property -- or been hounded
by the IRS for purely political reasons -- or locked up in the Cook
County Jail with a broken nose and no phone access and twelve perverts
wanting to stomp your ass in the shower. That is when it matters who is
President or Governor or Police Chief. That is when you will wish you
had voted." - Hunter S. Thompson<br><br><br><br><br>
<hr id="EC_stopSpelling">
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:39:45 -0700<br>From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a></a><a></a><a></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"></a><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:starbliss@gmail.com">starbliss@gmail.com</a></a><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a></a><a></a><a></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"></a><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><a href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a></a><br>Subject:
[Vision2020] "Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts."<br><br>
<div>The "Off List" response referenced, from someone I regard as one of
the most educated and honest Vision2020 participants, that I
received to my post below on tobacco regulation, is in total what is
stated in the subject heading of this post. Wise words, no doubt,
that I ignore at my own risk...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Notice there is limited or no discussion of some of the critical
facts my post presented: that tobacco (nicotine) is a
physically addictive drug, with underage tobacco addiction common,
raising questions if whether adult "choice" is in effect regarding
employees or consumers in tobacco related decisions; that tobacco
is the leading cause of premature death (nuclear waste or energy or even
nuclear weapons production is not even close as a cause of premature
death); that other drugs doing less harm to society than tobacco are
criminalized and prosecuted aggressively, involving civil and human
rights violations, yet who among those opposing regulation of
tobacco, will as aggressively advocate for these drugs to be
managed by free choice and the marketplace, rather than a government
"Big Brother?" Some, perhaps... While there are others who should
know better playing some on this list as fools, for the sake of
debate, or political advantage, or popular image or whatever... Or they
are as deluded as those they are debating with...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>My response to the "Off List" comment discussed here:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ummm... OK, I guess... However, being an idealist in belief that
expressing the truth is morally mandated (where did I get that dangerous
idea? I''ll end up in serious trouble! Oh, I forgot, I
already am...), I may not comply. I recently read a
variation of this same expression in James Lovelock's "Revenge of
Gaia:" "Don't confuse me with the facts, my minds made up."
Lovelock was referring to this mentality regarding the rejection of
nuclear power by many in the environmental movement.</div>
<div> </div><span class="EC_EC_sg">
<div>Ted<br> </div></span><span class="q" id="EC_EC_q_122aa783745cbaea_2">
<div>
<div class="EC_EC_gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; rem_border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); rem_border-left-width: 1px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div>
<div><font size="2">Please do not continue to confuse people with
facts. </font></div>
<div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; rem_border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); rem_border-left-width: 2px; rem_border-left-style: solid">
<div><span>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(228,228,228); -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="starbliss@gmail.com">Ted Moffett</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="vision2020@moscow.com">Moscow Vision 2020</a></div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, July 22, 2009 1:55
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Vision2020] Tobacco: Targeting
the Nation’s Leading Killer: Centers for Disease Control</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Tobacco (nicotine) is a physically addictive drug. Once
addicted, "choice" becomes a problematic concept. And many people
become addicted while underage, encouraged to continue their addiction
in bars, where cigarettes are often shared between
customers. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The fact tobacco is physically addictive is absent from the
comments of many opposing the smoking ordinance, as are the facts
regarding the magnitude of the damage. Comparisons
to other harmful behaviors are drawn (fatty food, etc.), suggesting
that a slippery slope of regulation will lead to government control over
too many aspects of life, but many of these behaviors do not
involve a drug addiction. Of course alcohol has dramatic negative
impacts. But workers in bars are not forced to drink the drinks
the customers order, as they breathe the smoke of the
customers. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I find it incredible that the health of workers exposed to an
addictive drug when they breathe in the workplace is approached so
callously. They can work elsewhere, it's announced with smug
authority, as if in this economy workers have the luxury of choosing
whatever job suits their fancy, rather than an urgency to take whatever
work they can find. If it was cocaine or heroin or methamphetamine
that workers were exposed to, the attitude might be
different. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Profits from exposing workers to addictive drugs in the workplace
should be protected based on free market, free choice, adult
responsibility? If this is the logic, where are the protests
against laws imposed on those selling cocaine, heroin or
methamphetamine, et. al., to consenting adults, which can result in
long prison sentences? Let the free market decide! Why stand
in the way of profits and the free choice of adults? </div>
<div> </div>
<div>If those opposing the smoking ordinance were consistent in their
outrage against limits on the free market, their ideology might have
more intellectual credibility. Instead, the libertarianism
proposed is inconsistent and conformist. Or perhaps those opposed
to the smoking ordinance will now protest that bars do not allow legal
cocaine, heroin or methamphetamine use? Think of the profits to be
made! And remember, tobacco prematurely kills more people than
those three drugs combined...</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If attempts were made to criminalize tobacco like cannabis is,
resulting in prison sentences, home invasions, for sale or use, I would
oppose this vehemently. But an ordinance regulating smoking in
bars does not stop any adult from legally using tobacco products in
settings where they do not expose workers.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If worker freedom of choice was a valid argument to justify the
exposure of workers to tobacco smoke in bars, than OSHA could be mostly
eliminated. After all, if workers exposed to hazards monitored or
banned by OSHA don't want to work with those risks, they can work
elsewhere, as long as signs posted in the workplace inform them of the
risks. A "Big Brother" government bureaucracy
gone. </div>
<div>--------------------------</div>
<div><a></a><a></a><a></a><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm"></a><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm"></a><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm"><a href="http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm">http://www.cdc.gov/NCCDPHP/publications/aag/osh.htm</a></a></div>
<div>
<h2>The Burden of Tobacco Use</h2>Tobacco use is the single most
preventable cause of disease, disability, and death in the United
States. Each year, an estimated 443,000 people die prematurely from
smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke, and another 8.6 million have a
serious illness caused by smoking. For every person who dies from
smoking, 20 more people suffer from at least one serious tobacco-related
illness. Despite these risks, approximately 43.4 million U.S. adults
smoke cigarettes. Smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes also have deadly
consequences, including lung, larynx, esophageal, and oral
cancers.<br>The harmful effects of smoking do not end with the smoker.
More than 126 million nonsmoking Americans, including children and
adults, are regularly exposed to secondhand smoke. Even brief exposure
can be dangerous because nonsmokers inhale many of the same carcinogens
and toxins in cigarette smoke as smokers. Secondhand smoke exposure
causes serious disease and death, including heart disease and lung
cancer in nonsmoking adults and sudden infant death syndrome, acute
respiratory infections, ear problems, and more frequent and severe
asthma attacks in children. Each year, primarily because of exposure to
secondhand smoke, an estimated 3,000 nonsmoking Americans die of lung
cancer, more than 46,000 (range: 22,700–69,600) die of heart disease,
and about 150,000–300,000 children younger than 18 months have lower
respiratory tract infections.<br>Coupled with this enormous health toll
is the significant economic burden of tobacco use—more than $96 billion
per year in medical expenditures and another $97 billion per year
resulting from lost productivity.<br>
<p align="center"><a name="122aa783745cbaea_122a2ac98d684f08_1"><img height="457" alt="Chart showing about 443,000 U.S. deaths attributable each year to cigarette smoking. Text description below." src="http://gfx2.hotmail.com/mail/w3/ltr/i_safe.gif" width="425" border="0"></a></p>
<p align="center">[A<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a><font color="#003366">text
description of this graph</font></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>is also available.]</p>
<h2>The Tobacco Use Epidemic Can Be Stopped</h2>A 2007 Institute of
Medicine (IOM) report presented a blueprint for action to “reduce
smoking so substantially that it is no longer a public health problem
for our nation.” The two-pronged strategy for achieving this goal
includes not only strengthening and fully implementing currently proven
tobacco control measures, but also changing the regulatory landscape to
permit policy innovations. Foremost among the IOM recommendations is
that each state should fund a comprehensive tobacco control program at
the level recommended by CDC in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Best Practices for
Comprehensive Tobacco Control Programs–2007</i>.<br>Evidence-based,
statewide tobacco control programs that are comprehensive, sustained,
and accountable have been shown to reduce smoking rates, tobacco-related
deaths, and diseases caused by smoking. A comprehensive program is a
coordinated effort to establish smoke-free policies and social norms, to
promote and assist tobacco users to quit, and to prevent initiation of
tobacco use. This approach combines educational, clinical, regulatory,
economic, and social strategies.<br>Research has documented the
effectiveness of laws and policies to protect the public from secondhand
smoke exposure, promote cessation, and prevent initiation when they are
applied in a comprehensive way. For example, states can increase the
unit price of tobacco products; implement smoking bans through policies,
regulations, and laws; provide insurance coverage of tobacco use
treatment; and limit minors’ access to tobacco products.<br>If the
nation is to achieve the objectives outlined in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Healthy People 2010</i>,
comprehensive, evidence-based approaches for preventing smoking
initiation and increasing cessation need to be fully implemented.<br>
<h1>CDC's Response</h1>CDC is the lead federal agency for tobacco
control. CDC’s Office on Smoking and Health (OSH) provides national
leadership for a comprehensive, broad-based approach to reducing tobacco
use. A variety of government agencies, professional and voluntary
organizations, and academic institutions have joined together to advance
this approach, which involves the following activities:<br>
<ul>
<li>Preventing young people from starting to smoke.<br>
</li><li>Eliminating exposure to secondhand smoke.<br>
</li><li>Promoting quitting among young people and adults.<br>
</li><li>Identifying and eliminating tobacco-related health
disparities.</li></ul>Essential elements of this approach include
state-based, community-based, and health system-based interventions;
cessation services; counter marketing; policy development and
implementation; surveillance; and evaluation. These activities target
groups who are at highest risk for tobacco-related health
problems.<br>-------------------------------------------<br>Vision2020
Post: Ted
Moffett<br></div></span></div><br></div></div></div></div></span><br>
<hr>
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